Science: Doing it Wrong

Once more: McPherson’s methane catastrophe

For better or worse, I want to briefly  return to Guy McPherson’s claims of human extinction within 20 years via a climate catastrophe. Guy is aware of my criticism of his argument, but has declined to consider the problems I pointed out (instead choosing to accuse me of being paid to disagree with him, which would be news to my bank account). Because I’ve seen him reduce his climate claims to the same two keys a few times now, I thought it might actually be worth singling them out for detailed inspection (even though both are mentioned in my previous post, which was a little overwhelming). I’ll try to keep this simple, but the desire to be thorough can make that a challenge…

(Runaway) Train to Siberia

The first claim is that there is an incontrovertible, rapidly accelerating release of methane from the Arctic. (Example here.) McPherson ascribes this to a destabilization of methane hydrates (also called clathrates) in the sediment beneath the Arctic seafloor. Ostensibly, this is based on the research of a team including Natalia Shakhova that has been studying methane release along the East Siberian Arctic Shelf, but McPherson’s claims about that research come from posts on the “Arctic News” blog. This blog, run by a retired petroleum geologist named Malcolm Light and someone writing under the name of Sam Carana, posts a great deal of strange and unscientific claims about earthquakes and methane in the Arctic.

Specifically, McPherson points to a post there interpreting the Shakhova et al. research as indicating an exponentially-growing release of methane from the East Siberian Arctic Shelf. Apart from the fact that two data points can’t  tell you there’s an exponential trend (rather than, say, a straight line), this also makes the mistake of assuming that there are actually two data points! What really happened is that the Shakhova group tried to estimate the total annual emission of methane from the East Siberian Arctic Shelf after observing some plumes above focused release points. (It’s not yet known if these releases have increased recently— the submerged permafrost has been thawing for thousands of years, since sea level rose coming out of the last ice age.) A couple years later, they published a new estimate based on expanded observations. This was a revision of their earlier estimate, now that they had more data in hand. Sam Carana treated these two estimates as independent numbers representing a time series— asserting that the emission of methane had more than doubled in just a few years. From there, Carana extrapolated to predict that emissions would increase about 1,000 times over by 2040. As a result, he/she predicts a cartoonish increase in the global average temperature of 11 C by 2040. (Actual climate models, on the other hand, project a temperature increase of around 4 C by 2100 if we fail to reduce greenhouse gas emissions— and that’s a deeply troubling scenario.)

Actual measurements of methane in the atmosphere don’t show any such sudden, accelerating spike, and climate scientists don’t believe anything like this “clathrate gun” scenario is underway. The Arctic News Blog obsesses over some satellite measurements of methane in the Arctic, believing that they support the claim of runaway methane emissions. (A researcher who worked on validating that satellite dataset confirmed to me that the raw data the blog is using hasn’t been through any quality control algorithm, and that the instrument hasn’t been validated for some of the kinds of conclusions Carana wants to draw.) By showing that some recent measurements of methane in the Arctic are above the global trend, they believe they are demonstrating a sudden increase. This is misguided, because the Arctic is always above the global average. That’s why we calculate averages. If you measure CO2 in the smokestack of a coal-burning power plant and find that it’s much higher than the global average from last week, you can’t conclude that is CO2 suddenly spiking globally. That sort of apples-to-plastic-oranges comparison is meaningless.

So when McPherson claims that “the clathrate gun has fired“, he does so without any evidence whatsoever. Rather, he relies on elementary mistakes made by a blogger who doesn’t appear to understand the science. Not data. And not published research. Not only do climate scientists not think that such a thing is underway, most don’t think it’s likely to be a worry this century.

Do the D-O

The second claim is that Paul Beckwith, a PhD student at the University of Ottawa, predicts 5 – 16 C of global warming within a decade— or, in a softer version, that Beckwith believes such a warming event could occur within a decade in the near future. McPherson continues to make this claim, despite the fact that it has repeatedly been shown to him to be inaccurate. To be fair, Beckwith has stated the second version of this— that such a thing could happen. However, Beckwith also appears to be confused. (I tried several times to get this straightened out with Beckwith, but haven’t had any luck.)

Beckwith has been referring to climatic swings called Dansgaard-Oeschger events identified in Greenland ice cores that occurred every 1,000-2,000 years during glacial periods (“ice ages”). During the abrupt warming phase of these events, the cores record 5-17 C warming in as little as a decade. Following that jump, temperatures gradually dropped over the following centuries. Dramatic as they are, they are not swings in global average temperature, but swings in local Greenland temperature. (This is what ice cores record.) Dansgaard-Oeschger events are terrifically interesting, and there has been a lot of research focused on understanding them. While there are still competing hypotheses for their cause, it’s generally agreed that they involve changes in the large-scale circulation of the Atlantic Ocean— what’s called the Atlantic Meridional Overturning Circulation (AMOC). In the North Atlantic, cooled, salty surface water from the south mixes downward and returns southward at depth. This movement has a large impact on temperatures around the North Atlantic, and the downward mixing that drives the circulation is relatively sensitive, meaning that it can be slowed or jammed up. One way to do that is by increasing the input of freshwater from melting glacial ice, decreasing the density of surface water.

It’s possible that messing with the AMOC could shrink the extent of sea ice off Greenland’s eastern coast, which would help explain the rapid and large temperature shift recorded in the ice cores there. Regardless, the shift would have been largest in Greenland, smaller around the rest of the North Atlantic, with only knock-on effects (mainly in precipitation) beyond that. (That said, CO2 did slowly rise about 10 ppm before some D-O warming events and drop after— a product of ocean circulation change— and methane did increase a couple hundred ppb over a few centuries around them— probably due to wetlands.) The point is that they are not instances of global warming, they are regional events. Noting that Greenland rapidly warmed 5-16 C over one or a few decades in the past does not imply that the entire globe could do the same thing today. In order to change the average global temperature so significantly, you have to alter the planetary balance of incoming and outgoing energy in a big way. That didn’t happen during the Dansgaard-Oeschger warming events. Given that these events seem to entail changes to the Atlantic Meridional Overturning Circulation, they’re really not analogous to the greenhouse-gas-induced global warming we’re currently experiencing. They’re certainly not analogous to the methane hydrate catastrophe scenario that McPherson is preaching. Beyond that, there’s likely a good reason they only occurred during glacial periods and aren’t likely to occur now. The latest IPCC report, for example, judges a sudden shutdown of the AMOC this century “very unlikely“.

So…

McPherson seems to think that these two points are his strongest, but there’s really nothing there to support his eschatalogical message of imminent human extinction— and those who aren’t sure what to make of his dire claims should take that into consideration. If we listen to climate scientists, instead, we find more than enough justification for immediate action on climate change without resorting to sci-fi-like exaggeration. And action would be a lot more productive than sitting around waiting for an extinction that isn’t going to show up on the date circled on your calendar.

766 thoughts on “Once more: McPherson’s methane catastrophe

  1. Dear Scott,

    I just had this exchange with Paul H. Beckwith… your comments? Oh, and by the way, if you have a bone of contention with Beckwith’s research, I’d be willing to facilitate communication between you and him. Let me know what communication didn’t get completed and I’d be happy to work on following it up with Beckwith.

    Enjoying the dialogue!

    Balan

    On Wed, Mar 11, 2015 at 1:56 AM, Balan balanverse@gmail.com wrote:
    Dear Guy and Paul,

    I’m back from vacation and in the teaching cockpit again.

    Here is an article from ClimateProgress on a topic that you might find of interest in your on-going work.

    http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2015/03/10/3631632/clima…/?elq=~~eloqua..type–emailfield..syntax–recipientid~~&elqCampaignId=~~eloqua..type–campaign..campaignid–0..fieldname–id~~&elqaid=24926&elqat=1&elqTrackId=03558a033d8f4694857300030dc4290a

    This, to me, is a much more effective strategy than hyping and extrapolating CH4 atmospheric data …

    In coolness,
    Balan

    On Sunday, March 15, 2015 12:05 PM, Paul Henry Beckwith pbeck062@uottawa.ca wrote:

    Thanks Balan,
    Arctic warming is already at about 1 degree C per decade (1.8 degrees F).
    People are slowly starting to recognize harsh realities.
    Cheers,
    Paul

    Like

      1. visualized
        Mercator projection there; does anyone use other projections? I find it hard to visualize amounts of anything when a sphere is stretched to a rectangle (e.g. Greenland is much smaller than Africa, but a Mercator projection makes them visually the same size).

        Even a bar chart or something would be easier to get the feel of that. I’m thinking, how to explain this at the fifth grade level so the picture “has weight” proportional to what’s being displayed.

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      2. Well, it’s not a map projection at all. Each vertical slice contains the average for each latitude (all the way around) at one particular point in time. (The y-axis is configured so that a band around the equator, which has a much greater surface area than a band around 89 degrees north, also accounts for a greater area of the figure.)

        It’s actually quite a nice way to show something that varies in space and time, but it is an odd style the first time you see it.

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  2. I’m always delighted to be corrected when I misread a science chart.

    Can you expand on how to read that or point to a description with simple examples?
    I’d guess it ‘clicks’ at some point once a person understands what it’s showing.

    I follow your explanation, but I can’t yet “see it” to where I can point to it and explain what it’s showing to a youngster — my criterion for climate communication.

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    1. I wish I knew what this type of chart was called, but I don’t, and I’m not sure how to search…

      First, ignore what I said about the y-axis doing something special, that’s an unnecessary detail for now. We want to show spatial patterns of atmospheric methane concentration changes, right? We could simply produce a map of the globe each month and lay them all next to each other, which would obviously be a mess. Luckily, we’re more interested in latitude than longitude right now, so we can simplify. We can calculate an average concentration for each degree of latitude by averaging that whole ring around the Earth together. (Like taking the average of a row of numbers, in case my language was confusing. Maybe a good analogy is a grid of playing cards. We collapse each row into one stack in the left-most column. The analogy gets weird here, but we’ll say we place the “average” card face-up on top.) For each month, now, we would have a single column of numbers, with each number representing one latitude ring.

      Now, we can lay those monthly columns side-by-side. Following one row across will now show us how, for example, the average concentration for 41 degrees N changed from January to February to March, etc., while following one column down may show us the average concentration at every latitude for January. That’s exactly what’s been done for this figure, except that the numbers are rates of change rather than absolute concentrations.

      Is that any clearer?

      We can bring the extra y-axis detail back in now. To avoid the exact Mercator projection kind of problem you mention, they didn’t pretend the 15N row covered the same area as the tiny 89N ring. They shrunk down the 89N box to be the right size, comparatively.

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      1. Thanks! it’s somewhat clearer now that you’ve described step by step how the picture was made.

        Now I’m still perplexed by why this is useful (grin).

        (Feel free to say “please stop, I’m bored/busy” ….)

        Does methane stay mostly in a latitude band where it originates, so an annual average means something physical about how the planet radiates heat away?
        (I recall that air circulation for volcanic dust and bomb test fallout does not mix globally for several years, the hemispheres circulate separately to some extent for a while)

        I can understand that the large area of ocean south of the Equator produces less variation and trend of methane.

        Do they do the same procedure to get infrared emitted from the planetary surface under the same latitude bands, then look at how much heat is coming off the land or ocean and intercepted by that amount of methane above it?

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      2. oh, wait: “The model is optimized using high-accuracy surface observations from NOAA ESRL’s global air sampling network for 2000–2010 combined with retrievals of column-averaged CH4 mole fractions from SCIAMACHY onboard ENVISAT (starting 2003)….”

        So that makes sense, they’re not measuring “up to a year old” methane — they’re averaging measurements taken locally many times at specific locations during the year.

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      3. Not bored at all! This is useful for me, anyway, to remind me what things I’ve gotten used to were hard to get used to…

        Methane does mix, but there’s still a latitudinal gradient: http://www.esrl.noaa.gov/gmd/ccgg/figures/ch4_surface_color.png
        (Sidenote: that is, of course, an even more complicated version of the figure in question. I’m curious, is that one more intuitive, do you think?)
        It has to do with the rate at which it’s being released into the atmosphere and the rate it’s finding OH ions to react with and turn to CO2+H20. The concentration remains a bit higher in some areas, even as things mix around.

        Getting to your question of “why?”, there are interesting details you could learn by inspecting regional emissions, but the big picture items are things like permafrost/Arctic vs mid-latitude natural gas wells vs tropical wetlands. It’s very useful to lump these latitudinal bands for climatic reasons, primarily. The Arctic is much more different from the equator than Russia is from Canada. You could probably get a good sense of this from reading the short article the figure came from: http://www.see.ed.ac.uk/~shs/Methane/Nisbet%20Methane%20Rise%20Again%202014.docx

        The methane concentration differences are actually pretty subtle, so it doesn’t make much of a difference in terms of infrared radiation escaping. That mainly depends on surface temperature and cloud cover, e.g. http://www.exploratorium.edu/climate/atmosphere/data/ceres2-2.jpg

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      4. Hi Scott,

        It’s a Hovmoller plot.

        Hank recommended your blog to me as I’ve covered Arctic methane before. I’m too busy with sea ice to get too involved in mole-whacking the worst of the AMEG inspired nonsense. But it’s always good to see others don’t buy it. Methane from the Arctic Ocean’s marine hydrates is serious, but like Archer said, methane emissions will likely be chronic not catastrophic.

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  3. the big picture items are things like permafrost/Arctic vs mid-latitude natural gas wells
    vs tropical wetlands. It’s very useful to lump these latitudinal bands for climatic reasons

    Agreed on that. Though I’m glad satellite info provides high resolution of local concentrations at ground/sea level.

    I’ve tried repeatedly to post a comment — which never appears — on several of the “methane monster” sites (claiming a rapid increasing trend) pointing to this cite (text quoted is from the bottom right corner of the PDF poster):

    Click to access AGU12ch4v2.pdf

    Current methane growth in the Arctic, including 2012, is gradual….

    If a sudden venting (bubbling) of methane would happen due to intense hydrates destruction, IASI would be able to detect it

    Yet, over and over the MM fans claim it’s happening now, with urgency (sigh).

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    1. my attempt to draw lines before and after the direct quote apparently gets removed by the blog software. The direct quoted part of the above text is:

      “Current methane growth in the Arctic, including 2012, is gradual….
      If a sudden venting (bubbling) of methane would happen due to intense hydrates destruction, IASI would be able to detect it”

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      1. Interesting, I don’t remember finding that poster before. Thanks.

        And Guy McPherson thinks he’s referring to their data (via Carana) when he claims the “clathrate gun fired in 2007″…

        I had emailed Xiong last year to ask about the way Carana and friends were using the satellite data. It turns out there are some issues with the measurements over sea ice rather than open ocean— Carana is always freaking out about the sharp change in concentrations at the edge of the sea ice. http://airs.jpl.nasa.gov/system/presentations/files/170_Yurganov_AIRS2014.pdf

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      2. Thanks for that 2014 document. Its Conclusion says:

        “Conclusions
        Evaluation of AIRS and IASI.
        Analysis of standard AIRS and IASI CH4 retrievals for 0-4 km layer makes sense over open seawater. Such data over sea ice and/or for low Thermal Contrast are unreliable.
        A check up of IASI data for consistency is on the list.
        Methane over the Arctic ocean.
        Satellite data on Methane in the West Arctic do not contradict to a hypothesis of existing and growing with years emission from methane hydrates.”

        Seems there’s less there than meets the eye. No wonder Carana et al. are staying with pictures and their interpretations, rather than quoting the science and citing the published sources.

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      3. Mind you, that is from three(ish) years ago. ;) But, stations are still not picking up the clathrate gun. Damn those stations. I’ve also had no comments published at those doomer sites. Now that’s real science for you; no criticism allowed.

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      4. Another tidbit on this topic — several years ago at RC, a fellow who also posts here referred to Yurganov’s illustrations that the monster bloggers were claiming showed scary trends.

        I found I could ask the AIRS people directly about it at the Ask AIRS – Feedback Forum
        Below is what I asked and their response

        ———-begin quote—————

        Ask AIRS – Feedback Forum

        Submitter Email: @.com
        Submitter Organization: none, just a reader
        Subject: General – Not a Product

        Your Science Question:

        … stuff based on the AIRS imagery. … Is anyone able to offer a sanity check?

        ———– excerpt from commenter at RC:
        … 19 Jan 2012 at 12:57 AM

        The Dec satellite image is up for Arctic atmospheric methane (at 400 mb) and it shows the darkest splotch of deep red (high methane concentration) over the ESAS (as well as over southern Siberia) that I have seen for December.

        It may or may not be the large blowout that some of us feared, but there is definitely something unusual going on with Arctic methane this year.

        ftp://asl.umbc.edu/pub/yurganov/methane/MAPS/NH/ARCTpolar2011.12._AIRS_CH4_400.jpg
        (And compare with December of last year–or any previous year …
        ——– end excerpt from RC 2012

        [AIRS] Response:

        Thank you for the heads-up

        Color bars are very nonlinear, and the eye can be easily fooled. The
        comment you quote is reading too much into that image.

        That commenter should also view this image of the trend over the
        Arctic cap:
        ftp://asl.umbc.edu/pub/yurganov/methane/70-90N_VMR_CH4.jpg

        The early monitoring of CH4 had shown a small trend upward that
        stopped around 2000, for no known reason. Then the trend may have
        begun again around 2008. Looking at the trend plot, there is a very
        small increase since 2008. The variability is larger by a factor of
        five, and there was a large excursion in mid-2011 that reached the

        level last seen in mid-2003.

        AIRS Team

        —————–end quote—————-

        It’s always worthwhile to go to the source and check what’s claimed about what the scientists actually are saying.

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  4. http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2015-03/acs-lts022015.php

    Public Release: 24-Mar-2015 Looking to space to quantify natural gas leaks on Earth
    American Chemical Society
    ——–excerpt follows———–
    Researchers today will present new methods to determine methane’s leakage rate and problems inherent in discovering and assessing leakage at the 249th National Meeting & Exposition of the American Chemical Society (ACS). The ACS is the world’s largest scientific society. The national meeting, which takes place here through Thursday, features nearly 11,000 presentations on a wide range of science topics.

    “I will discuss new and different techniques we are developing to make atmospheric observations that are being used to locate, quantify and attribute sources of leaked methane emissions,” says Eric Kort, Ph.D. “Also, we are using for the first time space-based observations to identify and quantify methane emissions from broad energy production regions and have found unexpected, high methane releases in a part of the U.S.”

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  5. Hey Guys, This is all a really great distraction…any of you looking up in the sky? Any of you paying attention to what are being proposed as solutions? The AMEG site is all about insane geoengineering projects as solutions to methane in the arctic. Who is funding these university studies? Science is Religion. Exxon Mobile is the largest corporation in the world…followed by chemical companies like Bechtel. Open your eyes to the only god everyone follows…money…

    The only thing that is certain is global industrial civilization propagated through western dominant culture is at war with all life on earth…it’s the terminal disease of an insane culture hell bent on destroying it all until there is nothing left. We are all captives of a story that tells us there is one right way to live. We are animals born wild and free but taught that we aren’t…the first species domesticated. Freedom waits to those who can see the bars. Once you see, you can’t unsee.

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    1. Karen Perry … Who is funding these university studies …?

      That’s usually published information. Often it’s you (or me), the taxpayer.
      Good value for the money, too.

      For example here:
      http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/wol1/doi/10.1002/2014GL061503/full

      Click the link “Funding Information” on the page where the abstract appears.

      Four corners: The largest US methane anomaly viewed from space

      Eric A. Kort et al.
      

      Article first published online: 9 OCT 2014
      DOI: 10.1002/2014GL061503
      Geophysical Research Letters

      Volume 41, Issue 19, pages 6898–6903, 16 October 2014
      Funding Information: Funded by
      NASA. Grant Number: NNX14AI87G
      LANL’s Laboratory Directed Research and Development Program. Grant Number: 20110081DR, PI M.K.D.

      You know how to look up grant numbers?
      Paste them into Google.

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      1. Hmmmm…thanks but it wasn’t a pragmatic question…and you missed the point of my comment. This is all about energy exploitation, specifically methane hydrates and who is going to control them. Well, that and crazy god playing geoengineering schemes looking for public support.

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  6. This is a bit of a carry-over from our talk about science communication in the general thread, but – having only ever been exposed to McPherson via his writing, I saw him on video for the first time this weekend, being interviewed by some New Age guru. It was pretty shocking to see him behaving as a well-mannered gentleman speaking about how he’s become a friendly and peaceful person. That message doesn’t seem to have made it to his fingers on the keyboard, but I digress.

    He claimed in that interview that, when he speaks to journalists, those journalists tell him that the climate scientists they interview say off-the-record that he, McPherson, is right. I very greatly doubt these journalists put it exactly like that, and doubt even more that climate scientists are saying anything close to “Guy’s got it right.” But I have heard a few journalists (including Alex Smith in that Eco-Shock episode you did) mention that climate scientists will say off-mic that they’re more worried in private than they often say in public.

    In conversations that you’ve had with scientists and journalists, what’s your experience been like on the disconnect between public statements and private fears (if any)? I’m certainly not asking you to name names or throw anyone under the bus, but if there is a gap between what scientists say and what they fear, it’d be nice to have some perspective on how big that gap is.

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    1. Yeah, I don’t really buy that as a thing. I mean, sure, people are going to be less off-the-cuff and sardonic when you shove a microphone in their face, and human beings only vent frustrations when they’re comfortable. So I’ve known people who will shake their head, chuckle, and say, “We’re fucked. We’re not going to do anything about it, and we’re just gonna be fucked.” (It’s hard not to when so many politicians are actively pushing away your entire field.) They’re not going to say that in an interview. But I wouldn’t call that a disconnect. I do think most scientists are unlikely to opine on social or political issues in an interview. They want to stick to just-the-facts-ma’am, as wandering afield of that feels like it risks your scientific credibility. And really, what good would giving their opinion on how society will respond do? It’s a guess. What they know is the seriousness of the physical reality, which they can and do communicate.

      If I’m putting together a list of things that are holding back action on climate change, this isn’t going to come up. People know that climate scientists think climate change is bad news.

      Guy seems so nice and trustworthy, doesn’t he?

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      1. “So I’ve known people who will shake their head, chuckle, and say, “We’re fucked. We’re not going to do anything about it, and we’re just gonna be fucked.” (It’s hard not to when so many politicians are actively pushing away your entire field.) They’re not going to say that in an interview. But I wouldn’t call that a disconnect. I do think most scientists are unlikely to opine on social or political issues in an interview. They want to stick to just-the-facts-ma’am, as wandering afield of that feels like it risks your scientific credibility. And really, what good would giving their opinion on how society will respond do? It’s a guess. What they know is the seriousness of the physical reality, which they can and do communicate.”

        I didn’t think it came to more (or less) than this, but I hadn’t seen anyone give it more than a sentence or two in the past. Thanks.

        And yeah, he does – when he’s speaking. He’s not the first person I’ve seen have a very different persona as a speaker than as a writer, but this was a really stark difference. It’s kind of irritating.

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  7. Balan sent me this new video of GM interviewing Paul Ehrlich. Ehrlich, of “The Poplulation Bomb” fame is a major thinker with all kinds of intellectual credibility and clout. Who, it now appears, is happy to talk to GM on an equals basis, conferring credibility on GM as he speaks. Way to go GM! May the nitpickers eat your dust! LOL One of the first things out of Ehrlich’s mouth is he asks GM if he’s familiar with Chomsky…

    The video that came up next in my cue is ths one (Paul Ehrlich)
    from a couple years ago, where part of the topic is college and university teachers taking responsibility for what happens in society and making their voices heard. It’s an original Chomsky theme that goes all the way back to the Vietnam War when the US intelligentsia passively went along with the government/media narrative and thus shared culpability for the crimes committed.

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      1. Will,

        I have to admit, in the many many Climate Change videos I’ve seen over the last couple of years or so, all with I believe reputable scientists (I’m not counting the nervous Nellies), I’ve heard more than a few say in answer to someone in the audience variations of ‘Yeah, we’re fucked.’

        I wouldn’t have mentioned it but I have heard so there you go.

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  8. Well, yeah.

    “One of the penalties of an ecological education is that one lives alone in a world of wounds. Much of the damage inflicted on land is quite invisible to laymen. An ecologist must either harden his shell and make believe that the consequences of science are none of his business, or he must be the doctor who sees the marks of death in a community that believes itself well and does not want to be told otherwise.”

    ― Aldo Leopold, A Sand County Almanac

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    1. Hank, I second that sediment! “We love what we know.” “There’s no place like home”.

      Upon this handful of soil our survival depends. Husband it and it will grow our food, our fuel and our shelter and surround us with beauty. Abuse it and the soil will collapse and die, taking humanity with it.
      We’re treating soil like dirt. It’s a fatal mistake, as our lives depend on it

      I came across the above Guardian article in the comments section to a recent RobertScribbler article. Eloquent bunch of commenters there. I like the scribbler blog as much for the comments section as for the articles. A great resource, as is RS, himself.
      The Guardian article/comments eventually led me to a story about a permaculture pioneer, Geoff Lawton, and some projects he has worked on in the arid regions of the middle east where, by all accounts, he has been able to do amazing things, creating quality soil out of sand, meager water, and the leverage of knowledge. He is the change I’d like to see in the world.
      Youtube: Permaculture Greening the Desert

      From no more land than holds a root
      An able hand will bring forth fruit

      – jw von Goethe

      Like

      1. I can’t read Scribbler. I’ve repeatedly tried to point out misstatements and misattributions — he’s particularly good at making his opinion fall right after a direct quote from a scientist without any separation so the casual reader who doesn’t check the cite — if there is a cite — thinks what Scribbler wrote is a paraphrase of the scientist’s opinion. He often doesn’t give cites at all, and invites the reader to find support for his claims.

        My comments on specific problems of that sort never appear there. He believes citing sorces and keeping track of direct quotations is burdensome. I believe it’s minimal decency.

        So we disagree.

        He just goes on writing. It’s his blog.

        Relying on unreliable blogs isn’t the way forward, seems to me.
        Check real sources.

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      2. I’ve never noticed any attribution problems with rs, so I’m curious what examples you might have. I did happen across your disagreement with him, but didn’t know what it was about, in particular. I’ve had squabbles with him myself and prefer not to post there, but I just chalk it up to egos and differences of style. But I like to check his articles because he connects to what is happening all over the world—-deluges, droughts, heat waves, wild fires, oceanic hot spots, etc.—-the whole is equal to at least the sum of its parts, and I appreciate someone who keeps close track on the parts. And he also has an accumulation of knowledge that flows out and is helpful. Lots of times when searching for a technical detail, I end up finding it on the RS thread. He’s reliable like that. The comment section as a whole reflects his own, wide-view approach; the quality and intelligence in the comments speaks to his credit—he has cultivated a unique following. I take the bad with the good and call it time well and enjoyably spent.

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  9. This is the most recent example, above:
    https://fractalplanet.wordpress.com/2015/01/08/once-more-mcphersons-methane-catastrophe/comment-page-2/#comment-3978

    Just saying, as a general approach — especially when you believe the writer has his heart in the right place!
    it’s important to check quotes and paraphrases attributed to a scientist.

    When a blogger doesn’t give you a link to the source — DOI, preferably, as those don’t change — try pasting the quoted string into Google Scholar to find the source.

    The nonscientist bloggers need the help, to get quotes right, paraphrases correct, and cites usable.
    It’s a habit worth learning, burdensome as some nonscientist bloggers think it may be.

    Even when they’re warning about the impending pocalips — maybe especially so — sources matter.

    Like

    1. You’ve lost me. I thought we were talking about robertscribbler. But you are linking to apost by you that is quoting sj. Where’s the robertscribbler connection?

      Like

      1. Compare this: https://www.google.com/search?q=yurganov+(2012)
        to this: http://scholar.google.com/scholar?as_ylo=2011&q=yurganov+%282012%29&hl=en&as_sdt=0,5
        and in particular look at this: http://fallmeeting.agu.org/2012/files/2012/11/ePosterYurganov_rep.pdf
        Atmospheric Methane over the Arctic Ocean: Satellite Data
        where you can read this:
        “CONCLUSIONS …
        Current methane growth in the Arctic is gradual … If a sudden venting (bubbling) of methane would
        happen due to hydrates destruction, IASI would be able to detect it.”

        Hard to reconcile the methane emergency claims of rapid acceleration and massive plumes with the satellite data from the scientists actually looking for methane. My opinion is, that ought to be reported by the people quoting Yurganov and implying — never in direct quotes — that he agrees with their claims.

        Enough. You can look this stuff up yourself, and that is my point.
        Make the effort, don’t rely on others to tell you what the science is. Get the cites and read the original source.

        Like

      2. OK. You have provided a bunch of links, which include a scribbler article entitled,

        Beneath the Cracking, Melting Ice, the Arctic Methane Monster Continues its Ominous Rumbling

        which is contrary to the science in some of your other links, i.e., papers covering arctic methane emissions data and analysis, the upshot of which, is that emissions are increasing in the arctic and seem to correlate with ice loss, but the increase has been gradual, i.e., there is no evidence of any sudden or catastrophic changes, and if there was such a thing occurring, the sensing infrastructure that we have now is sufficient to detect it.

        But, while the title of the scribbler article seems to conflict with the science, i.e., there is no Methane Monster detected, there is a subheader within the article which states this science thesis exactly,

        The Methane Monster Continues its, For Now Gradual, Emergence

        So, if you have a problem with this particular scrobbler article, I can only guess that you object to his use of the term “Methane Monster”.

        It seems to me like he has adequately drawn the line between hype, rumor and real risk. He certainly has not made any claims that the evidence shows actual catastrophic release.

        I don’t know if it’s me being obtuse or you being oblique, but this is the best I can do finding ambiguity or misrepresentation in scribbler’s attributions. Perhaps you could be more specific.

        Like

      3. Well, if I could butt in. The sub-header, “The Methane Monster Continues its, For Now Gradual, Emergence” surely presupposes that the “methane monster” is emerging, for which the only evidence appears to be a gradual rise in methane concentrations, which has been going on for at least decades. It might be appropriate to worry about the possibility of a quick release of vast amount of methane, but that does not translate into a certainty that someday soon, such a release will happen. The headlines Scribbler uses presupposes that that is indeed the case.

        Like

      4. mikeroberts wrote:
        * The sub-header, “The Methane Monster Continues its, For Now Gradual, Emergence” surely presupposes that the “methane monster” is emerging, for which the only evidence appears to be a gradual rise in methane concentrations, which has been going on for at least decades. *

        I think you would be correct that Scribbler reveals his bias in his wording, but I would not say that it is a strong bias and I think it is balanced and well informed. I certainly don’t see any evidence of chicanery or misrepresentation.

        Everyone is biased (if they’re not, they’re dead—my Dad used to say that–but he meant it from a physiological point of view LOL), and I respect anyone who supports their view with honest facts and logic. I actually really like Scribbler’s approach. I admire his willingness to debate the big wigs on the other side of the fence. That is the courage of honesty: If he wins, it strengthens his belief. if he loses, he has learned something. “What you survive makes you stronger.” In the comments section of one post, a commenter (wili) has asked the writers on RealClimate to comment on Scribbler’s post. David Archer responds in the RealClimate comment section, and Scribbler is all up for debate but, as I recall, the discussion fizzles. I can look this up if you’re interested in the details.

        Scribbler posts containing the term: “Methane Monster”
        Google the title to get to the post.
        7/29/2013 – 9/29/2014 (My database needs updating to include more recent posts)

        9/29/2014 When it Comes to The Arctic Methane Monster, What We Don’t Know Really Could Kill Us — NASA Model Study Shows Very High Carbon Release Uncertainty

        8/15/2014 The Keystone Pipeline, Arctic Methane Eruptions, and Why Human Fossil Fuel Burning Must Swiftly Halt

        8/4/2014 Arctic Emergency: Top Scientists Explain How Arctic Warming is Wrecking Our Weather and Pushing World To Rapidly Cross Climate Tipping Points

        8/1/2014 Smokey Greenland Sees Another Summer of Substantial Melt

        7/28/2014 Large Methane Plumes Discovered on Laptev Continental Slope Boundary: Evidence of Possible Methane Hydrate Release

        7/18/2014 Tracking the Footprints of the Arctic Methane Monster: Black Craters in the Siberian Tundra, Methane Lacing 2,500 Mile Wide Smoke Plumes Over Gigantic Arctic Wildfires.

        5/28/2014 Global CO2 to Reach Extremely Dangerous Peak Near 402 PPM for 2014, Methane Levels Ramp Ominously Higher

        5/8/2014 High Velocity Human Warming Coaxes Arctic Methane Monster’s Rapid Rise From Fens

        3/12/2014 The Arctic Methane Monster’s Nasty Little Helpers: Study Finds Ancient, Methane Producing, Archaea Gorge on Tundra Melt

        2/24/2014 Like a Volcano Slowly Awakening at the Top of our Earth: From Baffin Bay to the Laptev Sea, Arctic Methane Monster Releases Troubling Outbursts

        2/20/2014 Amplifying Feedbacks and the Arctic Heat Scream: Study Finds Polar Albedo Falling at Twice Expected Rate, Added Heat Equal to 25% CO2 Forcing Globally, 4 Times Human Forcing Locally

        1/22/2014 2013 4th Hottest Year on Record, Deep Ocean Warming Fastest, NASA, NOAA Find No Pause in Long-Term Warming Trend

        1/14/2014 Beneath the Cracking, Melting Ice, the Arctic Methane Monster Continues its Ominous Rumbling

        1/13/2014 World CO2 Levels Dangerously High: January Sees 399.5 ppm in First Week, Could Crack 400 Before Month-End

        10/17/2013 Radio Ecoshock Interview: Record Floods, ENSO, Methane Release, and Slope Collapse

        7/29/2013 Nature’s Amplifying Methane Monster: Feedbacks, Risks, C, and Mitigation

        Like

  10. My point is, look for cites to studies on where methane is actually found.
    You can find them. You know how to find this sort of thing.
    Post those in comments at any of the ‘methane emergency’ sites.
    Let us know if your comments appear.
    Mine don’t. But maybe that’s just me. I gave up trying to point to the science on that sort of blog.

    When I do find relevant material I post it here and at other blogs where the comments do show up.
    Here, for example, is one that’s new to me from today’s searching:

    On global estimates of monthly methane flux based on observational data acquired by the Greenhouse gases Observing Satellite “IBUKI” (GOSAT) March 27, 2014

    Click to access GOSAT_L4CH4_20149327_en.pdf

    (that’s a PDF so you’d have to look at it to see the pictures for methane)

    The pixel size of the maps is the same as for CO2, as in this one that is on a web page:

    found at http://www.gosat.nies.go.jp/index_e.html

    See the little red square at the Four Corners area? They’re now retargeting the satellite and others to focus on that methane hotspot.

    Relevant fact for this topic: that methane hotspot is not in Siberia.

    Like

    1. Hat tip for the above to: http://cires.colorado.edu/news/press/mapping-methane
      which begins:

      April 7, 2015
      Scientists probe methane emission mystery in Four Corners region

      This is a joint release of the Cooperative Institute for Research in Environmental Sciences (CIRES) and the Institute for Arctic and Alpine Research (INSTAAR) at the University of Colorado Boulder (CU), NOAA, NASA, and the University of Michigan (U-M).

      Satellite pinpointed methane hotspot in remote region

      A team of scientific investigators is now in the Four Corners region of the U.S. Southwest, aiming to uncover reasons for a mysterious methane hotspot detected from space by a European satellite. The joint project is working to solve the mystery from the air, on the ground, and with mobile laboratories.

      “If we can verify the methane emissions found by the satellite, and identify the various sources, then decision-makers will have critical information for any actions they are considering,” says Gabrielle Pétron, a scientist from the Cooperative Institute for Research in Environmental Sciences at the University of Colorado Boulder, working in NOAA’s Earth System Research Laboratory (ESRL) and one of the mission’s investigators. In fact, part of President Obama’s recent Climate Action Plan calls for reductions in U.S. methane emissions.

      Caption:
      Hotspot of total column methane anomalies centered over the Four Corners region from 2003 to 2009, when a satellite-based methane-measuring instrument was operational. The April study will focus on verifying the hotspot and determining the methane sources producing the exceptionally elevated methane concentrations. Source: Kort et al. (links in original)

      Last fall, a team of researchers reported that this Southwest hotspot of methane was the largest U.S. methane signal viewed from space. An instrument on a European Space Agency satellite measuring greenhouse gases showed a persistent atmospheric hotspot in the area between 2003 and 2009, which was also detected by light aircraft measurements in the summer of 2014. For the current study, the Japanese GOSAT satellite, which measures methane, has been re-programmed to focus on the Four Corners region. …”

      Yep, there is a methane hotspot emerging in the data.
      That’s it.

      Like

  11. P.S. — on those satellite maps, besides the red pixel at Four Corners, did you notice there’s one other place on Earth that shows up with that much CO2 and methane? It’s a little bit further north.

    Guess where it is ….





    Got it? Right the first time: https://www.google.com/maps/search/canada+tar+sands/@56,-96,3z/data=!3m1!4b1

    So there’s the point of all this. Ask the methane emergency sites if they’re aware that there are satellites that detect methane, and that Yurganov has said they’re working correctly, and that if there’s ever a sudden outburst of methane somewhere — they can detect that. Because they’re detecting big emissions sites right now.

    Money is limited. Time is limited. Attention is limited.

    We have big, real problems to work on. We should work on the real problems.

    Like

    1. Thanks Hank, once again, you’re leaving me to fill in several steps of logic to take your argument back to the original subject of robertscribbler making inappropriate or insufficient attribution. I’m going to let this discussion go until you’re willing to be more direct with your logic.

      Hank originally wrote:
      I can’t read Scribbler. I’ve repeatedly tried to point out misstatements and misattributions — he’s particularly good at making his opinion fall right after a direct quote from a scientist without any separation so the casual reader who doesn’t check the cite — if there is a cite — thinks what Scribbler wrote is a paraphrase of the scientist’s opinion. He often doesn’t give cites at all, and invites the reader to find support for his claims.

      bill shockley expects Hank Roberts to provide a direct quote from robertscribbler that exemplifies the above claim.

      Like

      1. Dear Bill, you keep asking me to prove a negative — you want me to prove he’s not posting my replies.

        Well, sorry. Can’t be done, you know. There’s nothing more boring that that sort of whining about individual bloggers who don’t post responses.

        Hey, it’s their blog, that happens. My complaint is the lack of cites, accurate quotes and direct links to relevant sources generally on what claim to be science/research blogs. No matter what the blogger’s politics, they ought to do a minimally decent job giving readers access to the science and the research.

        You can do the experiment yourself.

        You know how to find the full text when you find someone posting just excerpts.
        You know how to find the cites when they aren’t posted by the blogger.
        You know how to check subsequently citing papers to update old papers bloggers mention.
        You know how to tell a direct quote from a paraphrase from a blogger’s opinion.

        You can compare what the Monster bloggers post to what’s actually there in the journals.

        Check it for yourself. Post the relevant science if something isn’t mentioned on a Monster blog.
        Let us know how it goes for you. I hope your comments appear. Someone’s should.

        If you’ve not yet noticed anything lacking in what’s posted on those blogs — then hey, no problem, right?
        Read critically.

        Like

      2. Hank originally wrote:
        *I can’t read Scribbler. I’ve repeatedly tried to point out misstatements and misattributions *

        I asked you to point out these misstatements and misattributions, my exact words:
        I’ve never noticed any attribution problems with rs, so I’m curious what examples you might have

        I didn’t ask you to show me where you challenged RS, just an example of his alleged misattributions. So, are you saying he removed these misattributions from the record, presumably because you called him on them? Is this what you are claiming–that he has removed sections of his posts in response to your comments and also removed your comments so that there is no trace of his error? I agree that would be agregious dishonesty, but I find it pretty far-fetched.

        Like

      3. Nope, he knows my criticisms, and I’m not publishing his emailed response.
        If he does improve citations in his posts, more power to him. I gave up waiting, quite a while back.
        My point is, you should be checking citations, to find out if a “science research blog” is a good source.
        You should try doing that yourself, particularly on the methane emergency blogs.
        You should try citing actual sources yourself and tell us if your comments appear for the public readers.
        Good luck. I’ll be very happy to hear of your success improving the methane emergency blog sites.
        They need the help. They don’t want it from me, in my experience.

        You want to test what I say happened to me? Do the experiment for yourself.

        Like

      4. So, basically you want to back off from your original claim that RS misattributes his sources and substitute a more general claim that it is a common behavior on “methane-emergency” sites. And since RS is a methane-emergency site, he must, logically, also be engaging in misattributions. Sorry if I misconstrue your intention, but I have asked a simple, direct question and have got a roundabout (non-)answer. Has RS or has he not removed the erroneous attributions you alluded to?
        Simple question.

        Hank originally wrote:
        *I can’t read Scribbler. I’ve repeatedly tried to point out misstatements and misattributions *

        I asked you to point out these misstatements and misattributions, my exact words:
        I’ve never noticed any attribution problems with rs, so I’m curious what examples you might have

        Like

  12. RS has added the cite I emailed him:

    —excerpt follows—-
    To this point, Dr. Yurganov’s statement from the 2012 AGU presentation is informative:

    Current methane growth in the Arctic, including 2012, is gradual… If a sudden venting (bubbling) of methane would happen due to intense hydrates destruction, IASI would be able to detect it NRT.
    

    ——-end excerpt—–

    Well, that’s progress.

    Like

    1. Thanks for the direct reply.

      What part of your claim does that substantiate?

      Hank wrote:
      **I can’t read Scribbler. I’ve repeatedly tried to point out misstatements and misattributions **

      Like

      1. I tried pointing out that posts which simply try to extrapolate the immediate trend (last few days) are often premature in the crazy world of Arctic sea ice. His post on the state of Arctic sea ice was premature and, if he’d waited a few days would have been very different, with ice extent “recovering” to well above the bottom of the 2 sigma range. Area also “recovered”. The comment didn’t (or hasn’t yet) passed moderation. It was a fairly gentle post but didn’t make it. Seems similar to Carana’s aversion to criticism.

        Like

      2. And was your post of the rearview mirror, 20/20 hindsight, “told ya so” type or did you take the same chances that he did, i.e., make a forecast rather than a hindcast? Got a screenshot of your post?

        Like

      3. Hey, Bill. You can believe me or not; it’s up to you. I’m just telling you what I did and what happened. Of course, it could only be posted many days after Scribbler’s post, if that’s what you’re asking. But I could easily have written it immediately because that sort of extrapolation happens many times. All it takes is a few days of some bad readings, sometimes for a particular level of the atmosphere and, suddenly we’ll see posts at the usual sites. Yeah, they look scary but a week later, it’s clear that they got it wrong but they never learn. Scribbler doesn’t seem as bad as Carana, who plays fast and lose with mathematics.

        Like

      4. Why should you even ask me to trust you. By not supplying evidence you are saying “Trust me”. I never trust anyone who says “trust me”, do you?

        Anyway, I don’t think that’s a good way to introduce yourself to a community by saying, look, you were wrong, haha, with the benefit of hindsight. At least make your case before the dice are rolled.

        As far as comparison with Carana, I don’t have a big sample size with Carana. I think he responded once and then another time he didn’t. I don’t much care for this smearing tactic, either, well, he’s like Carana, ’nuff said…

        RS is closing in on 700 posts and for a while now, almost every post goes over a hundred comments in a few days. It’s a loyal, enthusiastic group and, IMO, one of the best—if not THE best— on the web for eloquence, uniqueness and resourcefulness. A true pleasure to peruse. I lose track of time. YMMV. I think it’s a narrow view to fault his moderation policies when you look at the results. And while Carana has definite veracity issues, RS is very well informed—not perfect, mind you…. but that is asking a lot—-and I get a lot of good stuff from him.

        Like

      5. Hey, it’s your call whether you believe me or not, Bill. I’m just reporting what I tried (similar to other attempts at other sites). That Scribbler has a loyal following is irrelevant. Why would having followers who gobble up every word uncritically be of any significance? I can’t think of any reason. I’m not saying that Scribbler is in any way trying to mislead but have you ever seen a post that follows up a previous edge of doom post with a reality check after later data shows the post to have been premature? It’s a genuine question because I don’t know but you seem to be one of his loyal followers so presumably must have come across such posts or comments if they’ve arisen. I think people need to front up when they get it wrong and I hope Scribbler does do that – I don’t know.

        Like

      6. mikeroberts wrote:
        Hey, it’s your call whether you believe me or not, Bill. I’m just reporting what I tried (similar to other attempts at other sites).

        Your original post didn’t make it clear that whart you did was a hindcast, and so seemed evasive to me. Also, you described your tone as “gentle” — am I not allowed to judge for myself? It’s just like providing a link is a courtesy and also a substantiation. In 4th grade we were graded on courtesy and consideration–maybe I took that too seriously, but I feel obligated to provide links and quotes and be as clear and specific as I can be when posting and I feel I do pretty well at it except sometimes when I’m in too much of a hurry. When people mumble and are unclear in their logic and don’t provide the actual language they are referring to, I ask myself what is wrong with these people and tend to lose trust. It’s not up to me alone whether to trust you, but it’s also up to you whether you want me to trust you. People do not like to have to ask for things.

        mikeroberts wrote:
        That Scribbler has a loyal following is irrelevant. Why would having followers who gobble up every word uncritically be of any significance? I can’t think of any reason.

        Who is to say that is what’s going on on Scribbler’s thread. There’s occassionally civil disputes among a generally respectful and harmonious crowd. But there’s also some diversity that generally doesn’t disrupt the peace. Scribbler has said he doesn’t like attacks. For instance, I was mildly cautioned when I played with Schmidt’s name at the height of the Wadhams/Schidt (opps!) flap. RS pays attention to tone and demeanor and 2-way deference. Maintaining tone on a discussion board is like maintaining weather. You don’t want it too wet or too dry. That’s how you make your garden grow.

        mikeroberts wrote:
        * I’m not saying that Scribbler is in any way trying to mislead but have you ever seen a post that follows up a previous edge of doom post with a reality check after later data shows the post to have been premature?*

        Can’t say that I have or have not. But I have seen him explicitly put himself as the arbitrator between the two sides of the methane battle, roughly defined as the Shakhova/data side and the Archer/modeling side. He’s not clearly bought in on either side, but he FEELS the extremeness of our predicament, which is not merely a climate predicament—-we can be done in by a myriad of concurrent threats. He’s dramatic in his speech but accurate and careful in his reportage. I think you’re too eager to lump him with your favorite strawmen. BTW, he puts in a courageous plug for GM once in a while. I like that–just to piss off the deniers.

        Owning mistakes can be difficult. Maybe he didn’t feel he owed you, specifically, that acknowledgment since you were not “in” at the same level of risk. I’ve seen him acknowledge not-insignificant errors, that were pointed out by regulars. (I could start taking notes, if you’d like and report back when I get a small list… just came across one the other night).

        I think a big part of the impetus to our argument is my perception of you trying to smear RS with an overly broad Carana brush. Without really knowing who/what it is you are painting over.

        As Abraham Lincoln said, I would have wrote a shorter letter if I’d had more time. LOL

        Like

      7. Well, you’re in luck, Bill. I didn’t think it was possible to provide you with the proof you so earnestly desired, since my post was in moderation and hadn’t appeared on the site. At least to others. However, checking today, I found that my post still appeared to me, as “in moderation”, so I was able to take a screenshot. As it’s still in moderation, who knows, it may appear at some stage!

        I don’t think my earlier comments were evasive. I told it like it is. My guess is that you’ve been a follower of RS for a while but can’t recall when he’s admitted he got it wrong. That sounds to me like he probably never has (admitted it), though I don’t know. RS certainly wouldn’t be unique, not only among doomers but among bloggers generally. That’s a shame because most put forward notions that ultimately don’t reflect reality but always think they’re right. GM, SC and RS are just 3 examples of that breed.

        I don’t see that there are two sides to the methane debate, as you’ve portrayed. Shakhova has, herself, acknowledged that time series data is weak, so that we don’t really know what is happening to methane, only that worrying events have been observed. I’m worried about them too but there is a very weak scientific basis for that worry. At the moment. I don’t think it helps, though, to repeatedly cry wolf, only for the wolf to go into hiding each time. I’m not accusing Shakhova of crying wolf but RS, GM and SC certainly have, and do.

        Like

      8. mikeroberts wrote:
        I don’t think my earlier comments were evasive. I told it like it is.
        What you told was true, but the truth is the whole truth. You didn’t say either way whether your post was before the fact or after the fact, leaving open suspicion. Producing the evidence would have been quicker than arguing about it.

        Thanks for the screenshot! Those posts can sit in limbo for a long time.

        mikeroberts wrote:
        I tried pointing out that posts which simply try to extrapolate the immediate trend (last few days) are often premature in the crazy world of Arctic sea ice

        Making a prediction is not always extrapolative. I just read the article and I don’t see where he did anything extrapolative. Maybe you should point out the exact language you are talking about.

        mikeroberts wrote:
        Shakhova has, herself, acknowledged that time series data is weak, so that we don’t really know what is happening to methane, only that worrying events have been observed.

        I have heard the rumor that she admitted this but I haven’t seen any actual quotes or videos. Do you happen to have one?

        mikeroberts wrote:
        I’m worried about them too but there is a very weak scientific basis for that worry.

        I think RS’s approach is to define the “Monster” as exactly this “worry” or risk. And, within that set of worries is not only the catastrophe risk of a sudden huge emission, but also crossing the feedback threshold at ~2C. RS is a major Hansen fan. Are these science-based worries? Hansen’s surely is. Shakhova’s work, I don’t think is very well understood. She is a scientist, and by all evidence, a very good and dilligent one. Her worries should be taken seriously.

        mikeroberts wrote:
        At the moment. I don’t think it helps, though, to repeatedly cry wolf, only for the wolf to go into hiding each time

        Define “crying wolf” and show me an example where RS has done this once, let alone repeatedly.

        mikeroberts wrote:
        I don’t see that there are two sides to the methane debate, as you’ve portrayed.

        Of course there are two sides. Shakhova says a catastrophic release is possible and likely. Archer says nay. Archer doesn’t even acknowledge Shakhova’s “snapshot” data of 17 Mt C /year from the ESAS. There is an Archer video on youtube from this year where his estimate for the entire Arctic Ocean is 0.3 Mt C/year.

        There is also a Rupel video where she says there is minimal methane and no increase from the Arctic Ocean (I’ll have to re-listen to get this exactly right). There is major denial going on.

        mikeroberts wrote:
        My guess is that you’ve been a follower of RS for a while but can’t recall when he’s admitted he got it wrong. That sounds to me like he probably never has (admitted it), though I don’t know. RS certainly wouldn’t be unique, not only among doomers but among bloggers generally. That’s a shame because most put forward notions that ultimately don’t reflect reality but always think they’re right. GM, SC and RS are just 3 examples of that breed.

        More guilt by inappropriate association. I’ll have to dig up some examples of him admitting an error and I know I just came across one the other night. You certainly don’t provide any positive proof for your point. ( Like, for example GM directly denying he is wrong about something provably false.) Your argument also ASSUMES that RS has been majorly wrong about some big point of fact or guilty of some gaudy breach of logic. But RS is more careful than that and not as biased as the ones you compare him to. Basically, RS promotes the attitude of the “precautionary principle”, which is only logical. common. sense.

        Like

      9. You know, Bill, I thought, by your remarks here, that you’d been a follower of climate change info for a long time so I wouldn’t have felt the need to point to stuff that you probably have seen anyway. Shakhova’s interview with Nick Breeze, last year, starts off with the fact that she can’t say that methane fluxes have increased because of lack of data and says that more data is needed at various other points in the interview, as well as admitting that her team doesn’t usually revisit the same spots. Don’t ask for timings of all the quotes because I’m not going to bother.

        As for Scribbler’s piece, the section “Record Low Start To Melt Season” is clearly (to me, at least, your mileage may vary) trying to imply that the particular “start” to the melt season doesn’t bode well for the rest of the period – even though the melt had been very slow early on. He only shows certain years on the chart, though anyone can go to the same site and see that adding other years may not make it look quite as bad. To me, he’s extrapolating from a “bad” start. If you don’t think so, that’s up to you.

        I can well see why Hank said goodbye. Look, you may think that RS’s posts are exemplary and the discussion that follows each is top-notch but I don’t. Simple as that. I don’t think his posts provide us with much useful information though they are sometimes interesting to read.

        I think we’ll have to agree to disagree on a lot of stuff concerning climate change.

        Like

      10. Youtube: David Archer – Subsea Permafrost and the Methane Cycle on the Siberian Continental Shelf

        This slide is at 27:44

        Archer is quite direct drawing the line between the two sides in the debate.

        Youtube: Dr Carolyn Ruppel on Undersea Methane, Part 1

        Didn’t see a Part 2.
        Denies that there is data showing a top-down increase in Arctic (land + sea) methane.
        No mention of meta-stable hydrates. No mention of suggested processes by Shakhova whereby
        heat can rapidly penetrate the depths of the sediment. This is similar ignorance and/or evasion as in her notes to the media on the original Yamal crater.

        Fairly faithful transcription:

        I am Carolyn Rupel and I am the chief of the gas hydrates project at the US Geological Survey. Our primary focus in that project is to study methane hydrates and I’ll explain what those are in a second in the context of energy resources, climate change and seafloor stability processes. Because they sequester or store so much carbon in the Earth’s global carbon cycle, people tend to be a bit concerned about the destabilization of that particular deposits.

        Question: People have expressed concerns about sudden releases of undersea methane causing a lot of problems with climate. What have you learned about that?

        It’s important to recognize that there are a lot of… different sources of methane in the undersea. For example, there’s almost always what we call continental margins, the areas where the sediment reaches the continent. There’s always microbes generating methane in the shallow sediments, whether there’s methane hydrates there or not, there’s methane there. And there are also methane hydrates in many places in the deep water. But there’s a few things to remember about this to sort of take the edge off this idea that there’s going to be a catastrophic release. The first is that most methane that is released to the ocean at water depths more than about a hundred meters is not on a freight train directly to the atmosphere. Most of it actually dissolves in the ocean water and microorganisms can then convert that to carbon dioxide. So, yes that does increase carbon dioxide in the ocean, which certainly is not a good thing but, OTOH, the methane does not directly go into the atmosphere. And that’s very important because we know methane is a potent greenhouse gas. So if we had this sort of direct freight train from a seafloor at say, 400 meters or 1000 meters water depth to the atmosphere then obviously that would be pretty disconcerting. Another thing to remember is that most of these methane hydrates exist either in the pretty deep ocean where even with some subtle changes that are starting to be noticed in ocean temperatures, they’re not going to break down very quickly, in fact, it’s probably many, many thousands of years or even longer, until they were even to begin to break down. Furthermore, a lot of the hydrates aren’t near the seafloor. And the seafloor is where—in the places where you have temperature changes in the deep ocean—the seafloor is where you’re going to feel those changes most quickly. So it’s going to take time for those temperature changes to propagate into the sediments. So, overall, I would say the deepwater environments are not a big concern in terms of injection of methane into the atmosphere. What we should be worried about are we call the shelves. The shallow areas that extend, for example in the east coast of the united states, pretty far offshore… those are the places we should really be looking at. We should be looking at marshes, we should be looking at estuaries… other places where shallow methane is emitted and potentially does reach the atmosphere.

        Question: There are some people who have been making some statements about some of those shelves in Siberian Arctic Shelf. What can you say about that?

        The reference you’re making is to work by primarily Natalia Shakhova, Igor Semiletov and some of their colleagues. And they’ve been working now probably for over a decade in the East Siberian Arctic Shelf and the Laptev Sea. And their papers document a large amount of methane being released on those shallow shelves to the atmosphere. There are a few things we can look at here. First of all the question is what the methane source is. It’s very possible there is methane being released there. For example if some of that methane is really sourced in drainage of the continent by rivers–so it’s methane that’s coming from rivers–I mean it’s not coming from the area right below the shelf itself, it’s important to the methane budget, but it’s not methane that can be attributed or blamed on what is a seafloor process. Another thing to note is there’s been some debate about whether the methane that they believe is being emitted in these areas is coming from gas hydrates. So let me say something about these shelves—these shallow areas around the arctic ocean. These are very interesting areas because they are areas, in some cases, that actually do have leftover permafrost. If you have hydrates there, they would be hydrates that are associated with permafrost. The reason those might be there is that obviously the sea level has increased by about a hundred, 125 meters since the last 15 thousand years, 20 thousand years, depending who you speak to. The point is that as that sea level has increased, it flooded permafrost. It was at the edge of say, Siberia or Alaska or Canada. That permafrost is now subsea permafrost and is degrading very rapidly. For example, on the Siberian margin, they estimate the temperature now for the seafloor is on average 16 degrees warmer on an annual basis than it was when that same seafloor, which used to be exposed to the air was exposed as permafrost (seafloor?). So, it’s much warmer. So the concern has been that we’ve got very rapid warming has occurred, you could start breaking down any methane hydrates that area within or beneath that permafrost. But there are a few mitigating factors that we should discuss. One is that in permafrost areas the pure methane hydrate, the shallowest methane hydrate would be at about 225 meters down. So, if you imagine that if you get warm enough to break that down, you still have to get that gas out of the system. And there isn’t always a way to get it out. A lot of the time the gas becomes trapped in sediments. Another mitigating factor is that unlike deep water gas hydrates, they tend to occur in a lot of different settings and sediments. In permafrost areas you generally only get gas hydrates in specific areas. So they’re not ubiquitous, they’re not occurring everywhere.So there’s probably less hydrates in these sediments than people believe. Now we have not finished this work yet, but our group in USGS has been working for several years to collect ocean-atmospheric flux measurements—not dissimilar to what’s being done on the Siberian margin—all over the Beaufort Sea. The Beaufort Sea is the US and Canadian Arctic Ocean. So far, all I can really say is that we don’t see very large methane fluxes and the large methane fluxes that we see are only very close to land, which would imply that it’s probably related to, for example, sediments that have a lot of organic material coming off the land, ending up in the ocean and producing methane right there. So, at least in the Beaufort Sea–so in the Western Arctic–US and Canadian parts, we don’t see high methane flux. That doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist in the Siberian margin. What it does mean is we have to be very careful about extrapolating from one part and one area to what’s happening in the total Arctic. And I think you’re probably aware that the top down—the atmospheric—methane measurements don’t right now indicate that there’s been any measurable increase in methane from Arctic processes. So, whether those be on-shore processes or off-shore processes, there’s not been a measurable increase.

        Published
        October 15, 2014

        Like

      11. mikeroberts says:
        You know, Bill, I thought, by your remarks here, that you’d been a follower of climate change info for a long time so I wouldn’t have felt the need to point to stuff that you probably have seen anyway. Shakhova’s interview with Nick Breeze, last year, starts off with the fact that she can’t say that methane fluxes have increased because of lack of data and says that more data is needed at various other points in the interview, as well as admitting that her team doesn’t usually revisit the same spots. Don’t ask for timings of all the quotes because I’m not going to bother.

        Thanks for the citation. Yes, mike, I’m quite familiar with the Shakhova interviews. In fact, I believe the one you’re talking about is the one for which I did a word-for-word transcription (Part I) and posted on this site (you’re welcome).

        Since you didn’t bother citing the actual Shakhova quote you were referring to, I thought you might have been referring to a recent rumor according to which she’s backing down from her catastrophe theory. So, yes, I’m quite familiar with her formal stance on what the data show and what it doesn’t.
        Thanks for the goose chase.

        mikeroberts wrote:
        As for Scribbler’s piece, the section “Record Low Start To Melt Season” is clearly (to me, at least, your mileage may vary) trying to imply that the particular “start” to the melt season doesn’t bode well for the rest of the period – even though the melt had been very slow early on. He only shows certain years on the chart, though anyone can go to the same site and see that adding other years may not make it look quite as bad. To me, he’s extrapolating from a “bad” start. If you don’t think so, that’s up to you.

        This is quite a bit different from the criticism in your “in-limbo” comment. And it still does not refute anything that Scribbler actually says. How about starting with something Scribbler actually says, i.e., words enclosed in quotes, and go from there. Scribblers ACTUAL argument is that weather systems now in place will, over the next few weeks, favor further weakening of sea ice. That has nothing to do with extrapolation from a sea ice trend or with the starting point of the melt season.

        mikeroberts wrote:
        I can well see why Hank said goodbye

        Yeah, he was consistently evasive and in the end couldn’t support his contention. Good reason to tap out.
        Please show me one instance within this present discussion where i wrongfully or contentiously wasted your time with my response. I’m not big on meta-discussion, but I believe people should support their claims, rather than just spout grouchy aspersions for the effect.

        mikeroberts wrote:
        Look, you may think that RS’s posts are exemplary and the discussion that follows each is top-notch but I don’t.

        Completely fair, but leaves room for argument…

        mikeroberts wrote:
        Simple as that. I don’t think his posts provide us with much useful information though they are sometimes interesting to read.

        This is what I like about you. Sometimes you can’t help being honest. That’s a good thing.

        mikeroberts wrote:
        I think we’ll have to agree to disagree on a lot of stuff concerning climate change.

        Too bad, I’ve always considered you balanced and organized in your knowledge and not too stuck in your views.

        In this case, I think you’ve made an improper leap of logic. It was quite a surprise for me to see you throw RS into the methane catastrophe crowd, because he had never come off that way to me. And I hadn’t seen him characterized that way in other places. Without really knowing RS that well and without providing specific examples other than one poorly supported example of a rejected comment, you generalize RS into a category of low-veracity posters who frequently don’t cite their sources and even refuse to upon request.

        Hopefully, tonight I’ll come up with that example I promised of him accepting correction on a not-insignificant error, although I think the burden of proof is misplaced.

        Like

      12. I guess it’s the McPherson crowd who frequently link to RS stuff as somehow supporting their “methane catastrophe is occurring now” stance that puts me off accepting RS posts as anything more than interesting. However, I have to admit that I don’t read him that often so I can’t say for certain that he’s another Carana. But his characterisation of the Methane Monster being a real living breathing actuality, if slow to emerge, shows his bias.

        Not sure you’re right about burden of proof. I don’t think it’s reasonable for me to trawl through his voluminous output to see if I can detect contrition.

        As you perhaps see from my screenshot, though, there was little reason not to publish my rather mild comment. The fact that he didn’t is rather telling, to me, if not to you, Bill.

        Like

      13. mikeroberts wrote:
        I guess it’s the McPherson crowd who frequently link to RS stuff as somehow supporting their “methane catastrophe is occurring now” stance that puts me off accepting RS posts as anything more than interesting.

        So he’s tainted, in your eyes, by unsolicited association. But there’s no proof that he exaggerates or in any other way misrepresents facts.

        mikeroberts wrote:
        But his characterisation of the Methane Monster being a real living breathing actuality, if slow to emerge, shows his bias.

        A bias supported by evidence. There is nothing wrong with that. There is enough evidence of risk to be worried. If he doesn’t overstate the facts then how can you fault him? His intention is to convey the message of risk, to motivate people to climate action. Maybe his aesthetic of dramatic prose rubs you the wrong way. I can actually sympathize with that. He might be more effective if he were to understate instead. But I can’t see any credible objection other than a stylistic one.

        mikeroberts says:
        However, I have to admit that I don’t read him that often so I can’t say for certain that he’s another Carana.

        RS has no problems with veracity from what I’ve seen. He’s actually an excellent source.

        mikeroberts wrote:
        As you perhaps see from my screenshot, though, there was little reason not to publish my rather mild comment.

        There was plenty reason. Your refutation had nothing to do with what his article actually said. Why should he bother to take the time and the effort to explain this to you when you didn’t even make the effort to ascertain what he was saying. You took two cracks at it, each different from the other but both different from the truth.

        There’s no grievance here. Why should he be on trial?

        I like the sophistication and diversity of the commenters. They are harmonious but not in a weak, sycophantic way. It’s like a Grateful Dead song, where the harmonies aren’t totally blended into a unity that overpowers the individual voices. Rather, the personality of each voice comes through strongly, and the harmony is a surprising survivor of the strong individualism. He’ll “steal the face right off your head” but you still love him. That kind of harmony.

        I couldn’t re-find the article I promised with the error/admitted. I owe you one (only because I promised).

        Like

      14. I disagree with pretty much everything you’ve written in your last post, Bill. But a couple of points. There is no evidence of a methane monster in waiting. If there were, it would be in the methane readings or in solid evidence of unstable massive deposits of shallow methane hydrates. There is some evidence to worry more about the possibility, though. However, despite having no reason not to publish my last comment, RS has at least published my latest one in that post and acknowledged that melt rates have slowed down in recent weeks. Maybe he no longer thinks Arctic sea ice is in a terrible state now. We’ll see.

        Like

      15. mikeroberts wrote:
        There is no evidence of a methane monster in waiting. If there were, it would be in the methane readings or in solid evidence of unstable massive deposits of shallow methane hydrates

        OK, then the satellite data showing steady increase of atmospheric methane above the Arctic Ocean over a span of 5-6 years; the observation of km-wide, intense, roiling methane plumes that would have been noticable had they been there before (not to mention the low satellite measurements from earlier years) and ergo, the supposition that these powerful plumes are stimulated by the rise in heat content at the ocean floor; the documented discovery of meta-stable hydrates in terrestrial permafrost in the Yamal region (Leibman, 2014 or 2015) are NOT evidence? How do you expect Shakhova, et al to find meta-stable sub-sea hydrates if they cannot drill deep enough to reach un-thawed permafrost. There is all kinds of evidence, you simply deny it.

        mikeroberts wrote:
        There is some evidence to worry more about the possibility, though

        Oh, really. And what is that evidence and how is it different from the evidence above which supports the possibility of a massive release?

        mikeroberts wrote:
        However, despite having no reason not to publish my last comment

        You repeat this claim, but neglect to address the fact that your critique in that original comment was based on something RS didn’t say.

        mikeroberts wrote:
        RS has at least published my latest one in that post and acknowledged that melt rates have slowed down in recent weeks. Maybe he no longer thinks Arctic sea ice is in a terrible state now. We’ll see.

        Congrats on getting published! Hope my critique helped with your cogency. I haven’t tracked down your comment yet—thanks for the link. And remember, the argument was about RS rejecting criticism, not about him being infallible. Your comment (Maybe he no longer thinks Arctic sea ice is in a terrible state now. We’ll see.) suggests you want to change the subject of the debate again (more evasion).

        Like

      16. Bill your evidence of a methane monster about to emerge is actually evidence only of something to be concerned about (concerned that it might turn out to be evidence of a methane monster about to emerge). A kilometre wide plume is only evidence of a kilometre wide plume. Without time series data, it’s evidence of nothing else. It’s merely your assumption that it will have been seen had it occurred before. It would only have been seen if someone had been looking, as when the Shakhova mission reported theirs (because they were looking). I’m afraid you can’t discern the difference but that’s OK. Methane levels were also rising at the same, or a higher, rate prior to 2000, so the rise in the last 8 years is not anomalous and, therefore, not evidence of any kind of slumbering methane monster – at least I don’t think so.

        Regarding my unpublished comment, it was also civil and RS could have easily published and refuted what I’d written. No big deal. I don’t know why you feel that all comments on a post have to be completely pertinent (as measured by you) to the post. However, I felt it was pertinent and have already explained. Regarding my successful comment, I don’t believe you had anything to do with it; I always try to be civil and pertinent. I may not always meet your high standards, but I do usually meet my high standards, and that is good enough for me.

        Like

      17. mikerobertrs originally wrote::
        *Bill your evidence of a methane monster about to emerge is actually evidence only of something to be concerned about (concerned that it might turn out to be evidence of a methane monster about to emerge). *

        The two cases:

        1) Methane Monster about to emerge

        2)Methane Monster something to worry about

        The distinction here is between

        a guarantee (abrupt release will happen)

        and

        a probability. (something to worry about)

        I don’t believe you can find an instance of Shakhova making a guarantee. She always expressed it as a probability or likelihood. So, #1 is a strawman, as something I would never endorse and Shakhova, herself, never claimed.

        Like

      18. Bill, I’m not playing the game on this any longer. I believe you mischaracterise what I’ve written to prolong the thread and maybe force others into submission. Well, I submit.

        Like

      19. And more to the point (I forgot we were arguing about RS’s “Methane Monster”), I think RS, if you asked him, would define MM as the risk of a methane mega-release, because he certainly does not think it is guaranteed.

        I think the science is becoming firmer about land/sea permafrost and other microbial sources of methane becoming a problem at and above 2C. RS has done a lot of coverage of this type of science and I believe he includes it as an aspect of the MM. It is on much firmer scientific ground than the mega-release, since it is supported by paleontological evidence—the portion climate science that Hansen considers the best/primary contributor to climate science knowledge—followed by observation and models, in that order.

        Like

      20. Rereading this thread, I see we are recycling the same arguments. Look here:
        https://fractalplanet.wordpress.com/2015/01/08/once-more-mcphersons-methane-catastrophe/comment-page-2/#comment-4181

        Where have you quoted RS’s actual words, that show he has cried wolf even once?

        mikeroberts wrote:
        At the moment. I don’t think it helps, though, to repeatedly cry wolf, only for the wolf to go into hiding each time. I’m not accusing Shakhova of crying wolf but RS, GM and SC certainly have, and do.

        Like

      21. Here is RS describing his own opinion, i.e., not paraphrasing someone else’s opinion, EXACTLY as I described above, i.e.,
        gradual methane rise = high probability, catastrophic release = lower probability but enough for concern. The article is from a year ago.

        As more and more of the tundra melts and as seabed methane continues to warm it is likely that total Arctic methane emissions will continue to rise, perhaps eventually rivaling or, in the worst case, exceeding the size of the human methane emission (350 TG). But, to do so, current Arctic and boreal emissions would have to more than quadruple— either through a slow increase (high likelihood) or through more catastrophic large pulse events (lower likelihood, but still enough for serious concern). By contrast, recent warm years have shown increases in the rate of methane flux/emission of around 5% with the average flux increase being around 2%.

        Further reading, different article:
        RS frames the debate:

        On the issue of the first and third questions, scientists are divided between those like Peter Wadhams, Natalia Shakhova and Igor Simeletov who believe that large methane pulses from a rapidly warming Arctic Ocean are now possible and warrant serious consideration and those like Gavin Schmidt and David Archer — both top scientists in their own right — who believe the model assessments showing a much slower release are at least some cause for comfort. Further complicating the issue is that estimates of sea-bed methane stores range widely with the East Siberian Arctic Shelf region alone asserted to contain anywhere between 250 and 1500 gigatons of methane

        RS describes his motivation for blogging:

        There are a number of very concerning aspects RE the current crisis. We’ve yet to observe clear evidence of worst effects. I see the science as strongest support for the most vigorous response possible.

        From the comments section :in the first article

        wili comments (quoting RS):
        “Which raises the question — if models aren’t being informed by current observation any longer, then what are they being informed by?”

        Good question!

        I linked this over at RealScience, SkepticalScience, neven’s Arctic Sea Ice Blog, and POForums Environmental thread. We’ll see what kind of reactions or explanations are forthcoming (or if I am simply banished forthwith from some of the sites!).

        I encourage others to do the same on any science or environment based blogs they are active in or know of.

        And then wili again, quoting Schmidt’s response.

        RS comments: AMEG is in the very rapid release camp and I think it’s rather unproductive to lump S&S in with them. In essence, AMEG draws conclusions from the S&S data that I don’t see S&S making themselves, though S&S have raised the issue of risk. Further, AMEG did not recently return from the Arctic with potentially new findings. So to say that AMEG represents S&S is, well, rather a stretch, especially when they were not privy to the new data.

        Peter Malsin / October 16, 2014
        Schmidt has effectively joined the camp pushing the metanarrative minimizing what is happening on the ground, now.

        wili:
        Yeah, I didn’t mean to lump S&S in with them. I guess I fell into gavin’s misdirect there, a bit.

        I want to remind everyone that very few scientists have long-term first-hand knowledge of the ESAS. Of the handful of who do, S&S and Wadhams are among the most prominent to my knowledge. Unless there is some objective reason to dismiss their credential as scientist (which I have not seen), their voices should take precedence over most others about what is happening in that area, it seems to me.

        (Hank Roberts made the same point some time ago on RC, iirc, but he seems to be willing to join in the smear at Stoat rather willingly.)

        robertscribbler / October 16, 2014
        In a way, AMEG is a kind of strawman for this discussion. They are group of scientists with some rather highly elevated concerns on methane release, true. But they are more a forum for addressing he most extreme concerns/fears. The observational science ongoing is outside of their broader purview and should be considered as such. In addition, framing the issue as Schmidt vs AMEG again just keeps the frame in the context of very slow (1,000 year) Arctic carbon release vs very fast (immediate NTHE release). In my view, the context is completely irrational as it continues to invalidate observations on the ground that may well establish a far more realistic subset and a far better and more concrete context for discussion. So, absolutely, the framing is arbitrary and artificial.

        Like

      22. Wrong link on “different article”

        RS is consistent in his take on the “Methane Monster”. And I think it is a very accurate representation of the science and his overview is accurate, too, and I agree with it completely. The comment section rounds out the view.

        Like

      23. mikeroberts wrote:
        Bill, I’m not playing the game on this any longer. I believe you mischaracterise what I’ve written to prolong the thread and maybe force others into submission. Well, I submit.

        I believe you’re accusing me of what you’re actually guilty of. There’s a big problem of evasion here.

        Maybe you should take a look at the thread and analyze the elements of the argument. Summarize them. Paraphrase the argument. Looking at the whole, all in one spot can yield clarity. If you don’t do it, I will.

        Regards.

        Like

      24. PS, Mike,

        You have accused me of gaiming, and misrepresenting what you wrote. But you neglected to support that accusation without evidence. (Such as “I said such and such, end quote, you interpreted as such and such, end quote) You also accused me of trying to prolong the conversation. May I point out that if you had provided support for your accusation, along with the accusation, I could have responded directly, thus eliminating a round of back and forth? Good. And let me also say that, since you didn’t provide the courtesy of evidence to support your claim, I won’t extend this thread further until you can do that little, least bit, and then you can stop worrying about being dragged dishonestly along to the point of submission.

        Regards.

        Like

      25. Just checked your successful comment. You civilly stated two facts (melt rates have slowed down, ice state rankings change throughout the melt season). I know you are capable of this but you don’t always do it. So, since you didn’t put words in his mouth and were civil, you got published, and he responded, tacitly admitting his prediction was wrong. No crime there. Now stop evading the error in your first post.

        Like

      26. sj wrote:
        Don’t be an ass, Bill.

        Thanks for the suggestion. Of course I have no idea what you are referring to (something I said?) and no expectation of an explanation (not your style).

        Like

      27. Not playing more of the prove-Bill-Shockley-wrong-to-the-satisfaction-of-Bill-Shockley game. It has no clock.

        Don’t be a snarky ass to Mike.

        Like

      28. If you don’t want to prove it, don’t say it.

        I have been careful not to be snarky. A direct criticism or allegation without irony is not snark.

        Quote me or forget it.

        Like

      29. I’m asking for a quote. How am I to know what you’re talking about? I posted several times today.

        Simple to quote an example. Guessing game to not quote. Snark is pretty obvious or it can be borderline. If I did it, I’ll apologize and try to be better. Can’t be any more direct than that. Seems to me I’ve been quite civil since you criticized my demeanor. Sometimes in the heat of battle I can slip up. Need a quote.

        Like

      30. I made the comment after a pair of your comments responding to Mike. One might surmise I was referring to those comments.

        This is easy. Take note of your tone continuing that conversation. You’re not on trial. Move on.

        Like

      31. So, now it’s snark AND being impossibly contentious. NO EXAMPLES GIVEN and if I try to prove you wrong I’m doin’ it again. YOW!

        Look out kid
        It’s somethin’ you did
        God knows when
        But you’re doin’ it again

        LOL

        Like

      32. sj wrote:
        I made the comment after a pair of your comments responding to Mike. One might surmise I was referring to those comments.

        This is easy. Take note of your tone continuing that conversation. You’re not on trial. Move on.

        I looked. I didn’t see. Must be some pretty thin skin. Movin’ on…

        Like

      33. Mike, I hope you were not offended by my responses. I’m assuming it’s just sj piping in for a respectful and mild mannered guy. I admit I was feeling a little impatient and maybe some of that showed through.

        I hope you’re still in this one. After all, I’m here to learn and I would like to see your destruction of my evvidence, LOL. I’ve always had the question…. how can she posit a methane event at such a low level of warming as we have so far, seeing as the major episodes are believed to have occurred at 5 or 6C above preindustrial. But there’s so much we don’t know, and the rate of warming is unprecedented and seeing is believing and Shakhova has been out there seeing. I think the Yurganov January series that RS posted a few weeks ago is a major dot, validating Shakhova’s gut feeling that the huge, intense plumes are new, as is the whole rise in ESAS methane which began to be noticable around 2000.

        Like

  13. I may regret jumping into the Scribbler talk, but…

    I’ve looked in on his blog from time to time. I have been put off by it, for all the reasons Hank and Mike have already given. He has, on several occasions, treated Sam Carana and Arctic News as a legitimate source of information on par with NASA or NOAA. The only post of his that I’ve seen where he directly discusses “Yurganov data series” – in January of last year – was Yurganov by way of Carana.

    Scribbler may not fall into the same boat as the likes of Carana (or McPherson), but it’s grossly irresponsible IMO to give them equal status to people who actually know what they’re talking about.

    Like

    1. Will wrote:
      I may regret jumping into the Scribbler talk, but…

      I feel the same way about responding to a serious allegation that provides less than serious documentation. Are you remembering an impression from a year ago, or are you talking abourt an article from a year ago that you have looked at recently? I’m pretty sure I know which article you are talking about, as my database only has one Yurganov reference from January, 2014.

      I love doing research and discussing RS because, the more I read his articles the more I learn and the greater respect I have for his work. But I’m done bearing the burden of dis-proof for people who won’t provide the barest minimum of references, i.e., the url of the article and the exact language they are referring to.

      So, if you would like to begin this conversation, start with the courtesy of specific references.

      Thanks in advance.

      Like

      1. “Are you remembering an impression from a year ago, or are you talking abourt an article from a year ago that you have looked at recently?”

        Something I looked at less than 48 hours ago after reading all the back-and-forth here over Scribbler.

        “I’m pretty sure I know which article you are talking about, as my database only has one Yurganov reference from January, 2014.”

        That’s the one, and I said as much originally. That article is Exhibit A for Scribbler treating Carana as a valid source. It’s not hard to find others if you go through his other methane posts.

        Like

      2. Thanks for the clarifiction.

        So, I am supposed to infer that anything sourced from Arctic-News is tainted and untrue? And that RS was not dilligent in ascertaining the veracity of the specific piece of imported information?

        For instance, did Carana use the images in a manner that was not intended by the creator of those images? Can you prove that?

        Did Carana falsify the images by altering them in some way?

        Do the images not prove what RS says they prove?

        I agree that one should be careful with certain sources, but valuable information is valuable, no matter where it came from.

        These are basic elements of diligence for both you and RS. RS, in my view has a track record of careful work. Please don’t sully that with repeated claims without any effort at substantiation, let alone actual substantiation.

        So, please show Robert that what he actually took from the site is false and misleading. Do not require that from me, since Robert may have his own reasons and evidence that I may not have.

        Thanks in advance.

        Like

      3. This is the sea lion problem.

        AKA the problem of trusting trust, in computer history.

        At some point, short of repeating everything yourself from scratch, you make a choice about where to go for answers — what Kate at Climatesight calls your credibility spectrum.

        Highest on mine, personally, is people with recent publications, cited by others, in the relevant science.
        Points to those who explain to the general public, and who discuss their own mistakes.

        When they tell me something is bunk, and I’ve reason to trust their opinion, that’ll do. Life is to short to trust everyone who blogs convincingly.

        E.g.:

        YMMV.

        Like

      4. Hank, I’m pretty sure RS won’t miss your company, but you’d have to ask him. If you don’t like or don’t trust a site, that is completely up to you, and I have no desire to sway you either way.

        That is one thing.

        Disparaging an author or a site without the ability, effort or desire to back it up is irresponsible propaganda—ironically, the exact accusation you and Will and mike are making.

        Like

      5. “irresponsible propaganda”

        I was unaware discussions on the personal blog of a science writer warranted such charges. I also don’t remember calling anything Scribbler wrote “propaganda.”

        If you do want a serious discussion, maybe you should check hyperbole at the door and know others may not appreciate it. My regret is setting in as it is.

        “valuable information is valuable, no matter where it came from.”

        Not if the valuable information can be obtained from better sources. And there are problems with the graphs Carana churns out, and Scribbler cited, as discussed in the threads of this very blog.

        You said something in your first response to me about “beginning a conversation,” but this conversation was on-going and I was content mostly to read it. I felt I had one contribution to make: that Scribbler has repeatedly cited Arctic News and Sam Carana as valid sources, which he has, and that I, personally, see that as grossly irresponsible. When discussing an ongoing issue on a blog everyone in the conversation is familiar with, it doesn’t strike me as necessary to go hunting down every individual instance right off the bat.

        Arctic News is not a place of groundbreaking research, insightful journalism, or accurate resources for the layman. It’s a blog promoting a theory that agrees with 0% of climate science. If Sam Carana sometimes passes along accurate information from other sources, that doesn’t change the MO of his blog or is unreliability. And there’s no reason why Scribbler can’t go to those other, better sources when writing up his own blog entries. In the case of Yurganov, from what I’ve heard he seems quite accommodating to requests for information; Scribbler could have easily asked him directly and cut out any middle man. If such a request were refused, there are still better sources of data to turn to.

        Scribbler seems to have a large following. Going off of things I’ve seen on RealClimate and Neven’s Sea Ice Forum, there are people who turn to Scribbler as some sort of “breaking news” at times, even as a primer for climate change. For him to cite a blog like Arctic News more than once, to treat it as a source of information just as valid as NASA or NOAA, does his readership no favors on getting good information, and it doesn’t give an accurate picture on the serious players in climate science. That, to me, is irresponsible.

        Like

      6. Will, you’ve got pretty high standards for information. It’s not good enough to simply be true…
        LOL.

        So, what if Scribbler did actually go to Yurganov’s website and get the images directly. (I used to be able to find that stuff, but not now—do you happen to have that link?) and then assembled those images into a convincing graphic which, clearly, uniquely showed the progression of emissions from year to year (I’m not aware of any other data set that is so clear). Supposing he did that, what would he have–an original, uhh, copy? And he wouldn’t feel obligated to acknowledge that the idea originated with Sam Carana? I would feel petty and scummy doing that. Sam Carana has lost the right to human courtesy? By whose authority?

        Citing Carana actually increases the scrutiny placed on the data. If it came from a more credible source, it might be taken more for granted, so it’s going to be looked at and questioned and verified more intensely coming from a less “trusted source”.

        Are lies from trusted sources better than truth from untrusted sources? Do you believe the mega-vitamin C campaign because it came from Nobel Prize winner Linus Pauling?

        Or, God, anything that comes from the mouth of some government “authority”? The government never lies, right? Hard to decide where to begin with this.

        If you would like a wide, intense plume of examples, let me know.

        For something close to the current debate, how about David Archer, this year, citing a number of 0.3 MtC/year of Methane coming from the Arctic Ocean? Or Carolyn Ruppel, last year, href=”https://fractalplanet.wordpress.com/2015/01/08/once-more-mcphersons-methane-catastrophe/comment-page-2/#comment-4182>saying there is no top-down evidence that Arctic Methane emissions are growing? (The Archer citation is in same comment)
        Ruppel is US Geological Survey CHIEF!! Did you swallow that one whole? How did it digest? How does Archer’s number reflect on his model results? What does it say about his assumptions regarding seabed temperature and transmission of that heat to the sediment depths? If he adjusts his assumptions, what happens to the results, such as size and timeframe for methane emissions?

        Who was it that said there definitely were WMD? Did you trust him because he was THE CHIEF? And what was engendered by that lie and have the consequences stopped mushrooming yet?

        What did the CIA CHIEF say about mass surveilance? Did you swallow that because he was the chief? Maybe you should have checked your sources. There’s lots of good information to be had from government agencies and you can have it if they want you to have it. Government is for itself, not for the people, so check your sources.

        Why did the gubmint change Hansen’s testimony to Congress? To be more honest? Why did they change it back when the NYTimes revealed the ruse? To be more courteous?

        Tell me again how information is not necessarily information. I give everything the same check no matter where it comes from. There is an old saying that goes like this:

        “prove it”

        You might want to check my source…. I forget who it was.

        Like

      7. Will, these are all the RS articles with a “Carana” mention, according to my database. It’s pretty much up to date but there might be bugs so I could be missing one or two.

        He’s using Carana pretty much for keeping on eye on unusual methane activity. Carana gets his day-to-day data from methane-tracker (not sure if that site is still functioning). RS seems to find Carana useful. I wonder if RS subscribes to the trashing done here on Scott’s blog. You may want to ask his opinion. I’m not totally bought in on Scott’s extrapolation thesis. Some of his curves look to me to be simply faithful evocations of a BAU scenario, extrapolated from historical data. I think they’re are actually interesting that way. Yeah, they’re scary, being BAU, and all. Funny thing, they get truer and truer as time goes on because the models are getting scarier, too. But it would be interesting to hear RS’s opinion. He may not have spent much time with the other stuff—graphs, etc.

        Ignoring the Arctic Methane Monster: Royal Society Goes Dark on Arctic Observational Science

        Methane Monster’s Grumbling Goes Global: 570 Methane Plumes Discovered on Atlantic Ocean Sea Floor | robertscribbler

        Like a Volcano Slowly Awakening at the Top of our Earth: From Baffin Bay to the Laptev Sea, Arctic Methane Monster Releases Troubling Outbursts | robertscribbler

        Beneath the Cracking, Melting Ice, the Arctic Methane Monster Continues its Ominous Rumbling | robertscribbler

        Beneath the Cracking, Melting Ice, the Arctic Methane Monster Continues its Ominous Rumbling | robertscribbler

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      8. Well, perhaps inadvisedly, I checked on the first link provided by Bill.

        Yes, it’s a little subdued in outright advocating of an emerging methane monster (despite the title). But there are lots of poor and probably biased reporting. Some samples….

        He posts the Carana captured image but doesn’t say why that particular atmospheric level on that particular date is relevant and doesn’t provide any evidence for presumption that the spikes are new (implied by “now rather common”).

        He mentions, a couple of times, that this or that is an “indication” of something without providing reasoning for that statement. The phrase “contextual evidence” is also used in a similar way.

        A graph there from ESRL data starts at 2000, which highlights the methane increase since 2006 as an anomaly when methane was increasing just as quickly (if not more quickly) before 2000. He kind of implies that methane had been gotten under control between 1999 and 2006 (“[c]onversely, from the late 1990s to the mid 2000s methane sinks and sources had reached a balance”). No attempt to look at what might have caused that “balance” for that short period.

        He mentions that Semiletov and Shakhova weren’t invited to a Royal Society event, so that “[m]odelers, instead, could have a discussion with themselves”, ignoring the fact that Peter Wadhams was a speaker.

        He doesn’t supply a source for the Arctic Sea Ice graph (I think I may have seen it at Carana’s place) but, in any case, it is inaccurate as it has a mark that is labelled “You are here”, when the “here” in question was 2012. The blog post was published in 2014, at a time when Arctic sea ice minimum was somewhat larger than 2012 for two consecutive years, so this was also misleading.

        But maybe this is a one off, poorer than usual, post. I haven’t checked the other links.

        Like

      9. Well, my warning about hyperbole seems to have gone in one ear and out the other…

        Carana, and everything wrong with his blog, have been discussed here, directly and indirectly, and you’ve been in the thick of it. If you didn’t listen to Scott and others who know how to talk science when they explained it, you’re not going to listen to me, and you’re not going to get why giving someone like that credence might be a bad idea.

        And, if you don’t understand why someone might at this point consider information on climate science coming out of NASA or NOAA credible, and news from a blog as not, I don’t know what to tell you. As it happens, I do tend to seek additional confirmation of news that I read, but I don’t see the need to provide a paper trail for strangers on the Internet.

        Like

      10. Power, lies and kooties.

        I don’t care much for the holy science/scientist stuff. Science is facts and logic. Archer and Ruppel have the highest credentials, agencies, authority, etc. They willfully ignore evidence and as a result, spout lies. Churches, like any power organization become corrupt. It’s the nature of power. Martin Hoerling of NOAA, same thing.

        There are some people who actually care what the truth is about methane in the Arctic Ocean. They are going to seek the best evidence no matter the intermediary and the kooties that might be passed along. The IASI data set shows a clear trend and the world would be poorer not knowing about it. And would not know about it if not for Carana’s discovery of the trend (if that was indeed his doing) and popularizing it. RS takes that top-down trend, puts it in context with other data and passes it along to another audience. Powerful validation for Shakhova.

        Will wrote:
        Well, my warning about hyperbole seems to have gone in one ear and out the other…

        Citation, please… Naturally people would like to be able to defend themselves, or otherwise learn from their mistakes. Thanks in advance.

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      11. Forget it. I don’t know why I thought I’d have any better luck than Hank, Mike, or Scott.

        Like

      12. OK, I got the reference to hyperbole. I’m just going to let that go till we establish some facts. Who’s right and who’s wrong and who’s casting ridiculous aspersions will get sorted out later. Tell me if you agree that Archer and Ruppel are lying. You seem to dismiss the importance of this, after I’ve accused them and brought forth evidence. Instead you retreat to your “who’s saying it matters more than what’s being said”

        Will said:
        And, if you don’t understand why someone might at this point consider information on climate science coming out of NASA or NOAA credible, and news from a blog as not, I don’t know what to tell you

        I check credentials first. If it’s someone like Ruppel (USGS) or Hoerling (NOAA) I might skip it to save time or read it for a laugh and a head shake. Or, maybe I’ll be surprised and they come up with something interesting and valuable.

        If it’s RS quoting Carana, I’m going to pay attention because RS is careful and probably did some checking.

        But really, it’s odd that you just skip over the Archer/Ruppel veracity problems that I allege… which challenge the core of your argument. I read that as evasion. Should I not?

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      13. Will wrote:
        Forget it. I don’t know why I thought I’d have any better luck than Hank, Mike, or Scott.

        I don’t know why either. Evasion at best frustrates the conversation but doesn’t advance it.

        Like

      14. Hi Mike, thanks for your observations and close critical analysis. I agree the modeling vs data graph should be better attributed. And also, as you point out, he has neglected to mention the large intervening rebound in ice extent. Leave it up to the audience to assess whether it amount so a hill of beans or not.. The conclusion from the graph is a little less true than it was when it was first created around 9/2012. Neven attributes it to Stroeve. Regarding the choice of layer from the satellite data, it is a relevant question but not a reason for criticism. RS has the editorial freedom to choose how detailed he gets with his explanations. Especially considering it’s an interactive blog and he can handle questions. The same question applies to the Yurganov “January Series”, as those images also represent a single layer. I’m actually curious what the answer is and may ask one day, but my guess is there is probably more than one reason for mapping that one layer. I don’t see any major problems with the article. You point out some not-serious nit-picks and neglect the overall importance and validity of the thesis and how well it was supported. Check your own reporting for fairness and balance.

        mikeroberts wrote:
        ignoring the fact that Peter Wadhams was a speaker.

        Yeah there were methane modelers and no methane empirical people. He might have meant that. You might have deduced the same.

        RS could slow down his pace of output and improve on crossing the T’s and dotting the I’s. It’s a question for the sages.

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      15. Bill, to my mind, it’s clear that you’re intent on glossing over RS’s bad points, so I will say no more. Perhaps you might reflect a little more on this. Feel free to post serious questions to RS’s blogs; they might improve as a result. you never know.

        Liked by 1 person

      16. When Bill’s heroes get worshipped (as determined by playing Six Degrees of Peter Wadhams), they stay worshipped. And woe unto the many black sheep, for their lying science shall be cast into the fire.

        I don’t think that arguing this kind of stuff with him has ever made for a fruitful conversation, just cranky participants. No one need feel obliged to keep playing that game.

        Liked by 1 person

  14. A helpful summary of what’s known: https://www.skepticalscience.com/Schuur2015.html#111046

    —–excerpt follows—–
    “… Over longer terms, centuries and millennia, carbon release from hydrates will certainly provide a big new source of carbon to the surface that will prolong and perhaps worsen the climatic effects of 20th and 21st Century human emissions.

    The persistence of the imminent clathrate bomb ideas seems to rely on the idea that there are huge metastable deposits of methane clathrates lying around very close to the surface on the East Siberian Arctic Shelf (ESAS). There is no evidence for the presence of these deposits either from sampling or geophysics. Furthermore, what we know about the physical chemistry of clathrates tells us that they should not exist at those depths and conditions.

    I will end by noting that in Shakhova et al.’s recent paper on methane release on the ESAS, the terms “hydrate” is used only once, in a general sense in the body of the text and “clathrate” not at all. (i.e.,”Among Arctic reservoirs, subsea permafrost, hydrates, and associated CH4 deposits are the most worrisome owing to high heat transfer from rapidly warming shallow Arctic seas”). I have no idea why this is so: it could be that the authors themselves no longer think exposed hydrates on the ESAS are worthy of mention or if the reviewers of the paper insisted that shallow hydrates therenot be referred to without evidence that they exist. In any case, it is unlikely to be an oversight.”
    ——end excerpt——

    Getting this detail figured out doesn’t make any difference in how we need to respond to climate change — immediately, starting decades ago and continuing through our lifetime and that of the next several generations.

    The argument — the drumbeat for “depressurizing” a “methane bomb” — is an argument claiming it’s urgent to drill into the Arctic seabed and sell the methane to burn it immediately rather than leave it in the ground.

    Arctic News: Proposal to extract, store and sell Arctic methane
    arctic-news.blogspot.com/2012/05/proposal-to-extract-store-and-sell.html

    May 30, 2012 – This “methane hydrate gun”, which is cocked and ready to fire at any moment, … to directionally drill inclined wells down to intersect the free methane below the … Natural Gas (FLNG) facilities and stored in LNG tankers for sale to …. 2015 making the Arctic Ocean navigable to ships and allow drilling rigs

    That’s the economic argument made by all the companies that control fossil fuel in the ground — burn it and make money fast.

    That — already happening now without the greenwashing excuse — is what we need to be working together to stop.

    Anyone disagree?

    Save the sea lions — and the rest of the ecosystem.

    Like

    1. On the issue of who we should or shouldn’t trust, there are those who say,

      And others who maintain,

      My opinion, especially on an issue as important as climate change, consensus is everything.

      Like

  15. Reminder — the original post, top of page, is worth reading.
    That may avoid repetition.
    Or not.

    “… Sam Carana treated these two estimates as independent numbers representing a time series— asserting that the emission of methane had more than doubled in just a few years. From there, Carana extrapolated to predict ….”

    Liked by 1 person

    1. Hank, Scott should maybe revisit his post since it doesn’t reflect what is currently said. Carana is now correctly treating the 8 and 17 Tg numbers as an original and a revised number respectively. Since he has revised his article to correctly reflect the meaning of the Shakhova report, he should be commended for assimilating criticism.

      I don’t find anything terribly wrong with his article. Guessing at the doubling period as implied in his graph is valid as long as it is clear that it is a guess. Since he acknowledges that the 8 Tg number is not a data point, we can assume that the graph is making a guess at the 8.5 Tg location with reference to the time axis.

      His extrapolation looks entirely plausible to me.

      RobertScribbler continues to find Carana’s methane vigilance helpful as again, today, he braves the kooties.

      Like

      1. Scott, click on the link from the paragraph that Hank was pointing to.

        “Specifically, McPherson points to a post there”, where the word “post” is linked to this article:
        http://arctic-news.blogspot.co.nz/2013/11/quantifying-arctic-methane.html

        in which Carana says:
        Some 17 teragrams (Tg or Mt) of methane escapes annually from the ESAS, said Natalia Shakova, lead study author and a biogeochemist at the University of Alaska, Fairbanks. This is an upgrade from the earlier estimate of 8 Tg of annual outgassing from the ESAS (Shakhova et al. 2010).

        As for your present link (in the comment I am responding to, i.e., http://arctic-news.blogspot.com/2015/03/march-4-2015-arctic-sea-ice-extent-hits-record-low.html )
        I see no methane extrapolation graph, and I find no reference to Shakhova, let alone the language you attest.

        Please put in quotes the exact language that supports your “bullshit” claim.
        Also, explain to me why I should not refer to the actual post that your original link refers to.
        Thanks and regards.

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      2. Whoops! Copied the wrong link and then somehow missed when I went to correct it. Sorry about that.
        http://arctic-news.blogspot.com/2015/02/the-mechanism.html

        The post you’re linking to is the original, and I don’t think it has ever changed. (The Wayback Machine has only one save, from April 2014, but it’s the same there.) You’re right that there is nothing wrong about those two sentences, as written, but you might want to look at the rest of the post, which is based on treating those two numbers as a time series.

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      3. Thanks Scott,

        Yes, I should have read another paragraph or two. Carana attempts to make a data point out of the 2009 estimate (8 Tg), but tries to explain the reason for Shakhova’s upgrade as something other than Shakhova’s stated reason (unexpected plumes found in the outer shelf). So it’s a misrepresentation of Shakhova.

        If I was Carana and wanted to show what an exponential curve for methane growth in the ESAS, instead of straining after two data points, I would start with the one (2012) definite point and make reasonable, fungible arguments for another point. Maybe, a near-zero point for a ~2000 date. Maybe use IPCC numbers or numbers form other papers, or make an argument for some kind mathematical relationship between seabed temperature and emissions strength, or use satellite data. Or he could simply say what Shakhova doesn’t allow herself to say, but feels in her gut, i.e., that her first troubling discovery around the year 2000 was the demarcation point for the new era of emissions. Perhaps this thesis is the same as attesting the firing of the Clathrate Gun. He could have been more open and honest and said the same thing, more powerfully, in a lighter mode of speculation rather than formal data-based analysis, which I would have wholeheartedly endorsed.

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      4. I see no change to the article in Carana’s blog, Bill. Here’s a snapshot of the page from last year. Looks the same to me, and I even tried a compare on computer. Perhaps you could point out the differences or admit, maybe, that you got it wrong and didn’t do your homework?

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      5. I’m surprised (or maybe not) that you can’t see the deficiencies in RS’s post. There is no reference for the remark that methane reading ranged as high as 2600 in recent years. It looks like the source may be the dependable Carana, again, with his graph which doesn’t define the atmospheric level for the readings (is it always 586mb?) and with no way to check them. Why is “recent years” (presumably back to 2010) the most useful guide? Were there such high spikes, at that atmospheric level, in the last 30-40 years?

        Again, RS and Carana leap out of the starting gate early. Wow, there was a spike, apparently unprecendented for, oh, at least 5 years. There must be something going on. I don’t want to diminish the role of methane in our future but this kind of crying wolf act is not helpful.

        Liked by 1 person

      6. Mike, if you were sincerely interested in the issues addressed by the article, rather than nitpicking and smearing kooties, you could probably engage RS with your questions and get an honest, possibly informative answer. But attitude carries, so you would probably have to be vigilant with your tone and be minimally respectful, i.e., don’t come with the strawmen, 20-20 hindsight, etc. RS has said he doesn’t like attacks and refuses to argue with deniers… an approach that speaks of experience, wisdom and a priority placed on using time well.

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      7. Bill, I was replying to your linking of an RS article as you attempt to elevate the work of RS. I merely pointed out some deficiencies that were easy to spot, to me. Feel free to bring them to the attention of RS, if you wish. The point is that RS is not the paragon of journalistic virtue that you appear to paint him as. His articles are sometimes interesting but you shouldn’t rely on his blog for genuine information.

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  16. sj wrote:
    Apart from the fact that two data points can’t tell you there’s an exponential trend

    They can’t tell you but it’s your choice whether to assume a line or an exponential trend, depending on the circumstances and your intention. From there you can draw either a line or an exponential:
    Two Points Determine an Exponential

    (which, remember your geometry classes, can only define a straight line*

    I don’t know who taught your geomety class, but the typical language in that theorem is
    A line is uniquely determined by two points
    which does not mean the same thing as what you said–so you might want to update your piece… it might save you a “bullshit” accusation.

    Like

    1. sj wrote:
      Hard for me to understand why you still think there is.*

      This is apparent. There seems to be some fundamental principles being tested here.

      Some basic logic. A statement and its opposite cannot both be true. Therefore, starting with your original statement:

      “two points can only define a straight line*

      If I prove that the opposite is true, then your statement must be false. X cannot both equal 4 and not equal 4.

      Same page so far?

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      1. You have not done that. You claimed that “define” and “uniquely determined by” are completely different things, but I don’t see it. I’m sure my language was imprecise compared to textbook definitions, but to me, that’s exactly what I said.

        Your point that you can assume an exponential line was exactly my point: that Carana had just assumed an exponential line, while presenting it as empirical fact. We’ve been all through that part of this.

        Like

      2. sj wrote:
        You have not done that

        I’m going to wait to respond to this until you make it clear what statement of mine you were referring to. What have I not done?

        Like

      3. sj wrote:
        You claimed that “define” and “uniquely determined by” are completely different things

        I don’t recall claiming that. Words in quotes, please.

        But I’ll take a stab…

        “Two points uniquely define an exponential function”
        I would say that is true.

        “An exponential function is uniquely determined by two points”
        I would say that is the same thing.

        It’s just reversing the clauses.

        Fred is my dog.
        My dog is Fred.

        Citation needed.

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      4. sj wrote:
        **You claimed that “define” and “uniquely determined by” are completely different things, but I don’t see it. I’m sure my language was imprecise compared to textbook definitions, but to me, that’s exactly what I said.

        Unclear sentence.

        What is exactly what I said, i.e., what did you say?

        You can be astonishingly unclear at times, for someone with such a gift for articulation.

        Like

      5. Conversation is always an adventure with you.

        I’m going to wait to respond to this until you make it clear what statement of mine you were referring to. What have I not done?

        You have not “proven the opposite is true”.

        I don’t recall claiming that. Words in quotes, please.

        I don’t know who taught your geomety class, but the typical language in that theorem is
        A line is uniquely determined by two points
        which does not mean the same thing as what you said–so you might want to update your piece… it might save you a “bullshit” accusation.

        You seem to doggedly miss the point here.
        Carana puts two points on a graph. (It’s actually only one point, but I think we’ve moved beyond that.) He arbitrarily runs an exponential curve through them and says “See what it will be in 40 years?” He does NOT say, “For the sake of argument, let’s see what it would look like if this increased exponentially rather than linearly.” He does support the choice of exponential curve using other evidence. He just does it, pastes it all over the place as evidence of doomdoom, and McPherson runs with it as such, claiming the exponential curve to be actual evidence that cannot be denied.

        Two points cannot tell you there is an exponential growth. That’s exactly what I said. One point can sit on an infinite number of lines and higher order curves. Two points define one line, and can sit on many higher order curves. You may choose to run one of those curves through those points by choosing a function, but those points give you absolutely no indication that what you’re doing is realistic. This really isn’t complicated. You’re getting hung up on the fact that you can run an exponential curve through two points. That is completely irrelevant to my point.

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      6. sj wrote:
        Apart from the fact that two data points which remember your geometry classes can only define a straight line

        According to you, we should know this fact about two points and straight lines from geometry class. Did your geometry teacher know about Sam Carana? You’re trying to come off as knowing something about mathematics, while making an erroneous statement. Nobody learned such a thing in geometry class because it’s not true.

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      7. Perhaps I can simplify this.

        sj wrote:
        “two points can only define a straight line

        By this I assume you mean, for example,

        “two points can uniquely define a straight line BUT they cannot uniquely define any other kind of line (or curve, if you prefer), such as an exponential function, hyperbola, parabola, circle, etc”

        In another place you wrote something similar:

        Think about it in terms of simple geometry. You can define a line with two points. You cannot define a curve with two points.

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      8. Here you go. There’s a spot you can get me for sloppy language. I should not have said “exponential curves”, because what I had in mind was non-linear curves, broadly. Lots of curves can go through two points, I was saying. You don’t know whether any of them are right.

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      9. Gosh, you do go on, Bill. Let’s forget the exponential (Carana has used other functions for various things). One point is, as Scott has written, that many lines could be drawn between two points; one straight and others curved, some convex and some concave. So there is no useful information in the line Carana drew. Secondly, the two points weren’t even data points but Carana went ahead and treated them that way, even though he’d previously acknowledged that they weren’t data points. He provided no useful information in his blog post, regarding the estimate. None. Nothing at all. But some people hang on his every written word. Go figure.

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      10. mikeroberts wrote:
        *Let’s forget the exponential *

        LOL! Wouldn’t it be nice. Nobody taught Scott that two points ONLY define a line. That was the claim. That’s what I disproved. Stop trying to cover up the truth with lies. Carana had nothing to do with Scott misremembering his geometry lesson.

        mikeroberts wrote:
        Gosh, you do go on, Bill

        I agree, I could have been quicker to prove that Scott actually claimed what I accused him of claiming. But once he started denying it, I forgot that the plain proof was right there and the game was on. I will keep this point in mind in future discussions.

        Thanks.

        Regards.

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      11. Bill. For some reason, you don’t get it. Scott had already acknowledged (when you last covered this topic) that he was sloppy. But two points can define many lines, as I’ve said. Some concave, some convex. Two points would tell us very little about what was going on. But the points in question were not even data points. Surely you can see that Carana was very wrong in trying to fit some arbitrary curve to two points that weren’t even data points. If you can see that then I suggest you drop it (or perhaps chastise Carana for imagining that two points can only have one line drawn between them – and extrapolated). If you can’t see that, then there is nothing else anyone can say about the matter.

        Like

      12. mike, sj acknowledged being sloppy in reference to this statement that he made some time ago:
        For the two data points Carana uses (which he shouldn’t be treating as separate data points, let’s not forget), you could draw an infinite number of exponential curves containing those two points.

        If it was mere sloppiness, then he has been consistently sloppy with the distinction between curves in general and an exponential curve in particular. I can show you more examples, if you like.

        sj also claimed that his geometry teacher told him that you can only define a straight line with two points.

        What this says is that ANY curve that is not a straight line cannot be defined by two points. That is true, I believe, EXCEPT for exponential curves. Same error as before, totally different wording. Please change the wording of this latter statement to make it true and show that he was merely being sloppy.

        Like

      13. Wait a second, this stuff isn’t even in the friggin’ post! I just finally realized you’re complaining about a comment from over a year ago. Bill! Get a new hobby!

        Like

      14. sj wrote:
        *Wait a second, this stuff isn’t even in the friggin’ post! *

        Very articulate, Scott. What “stuff” are you talking about?

        Here’s the language from your contested blog post:

        two data points… which remember your geometry classes, can only define a straight line

        This statement is wrong because it implies that you can NOT define an exponential curve with two points.

        Your older statement (what’s the cutoff point for relevance and why?):

        you could draw an infinite number of exponential curves containing those two points.

        implies the exact same thing, i.e.,

        you can NOT define an exponential curve with two points.

        So you made identical assertions a year apart using completely different language, and yet you want to say you merely mis-spoke but you really do/did understand the math.

        There’s no jury here, so you’re not going to jail. But you should correct the language in your blog post
        1) so as not to be a duplicitous hypocrite accusing others of not correcting mistakes that have been pointed out.
        2) so people don’t think you’re a math dunce spouting bullshit.

        Like

      15. Here’s the language from your contested blog post:

        Ah, that is in the second McPherson post! Sorry. You linked to a comment (perhaps meaning to link to the post itself), and I forgot the second post had Carana stuff in it. (Sometimes I forget to look at which post is being commented on, as all the comments are in one big pile on my end.)

        I have changed the sentence to “Apart from the fact that two data points can’t tell you there’s an exponential trend (rather than, say, a straight line)”. Is this clear enough for you now, so we can stop talking about it?

        A line, geometrically, is fully defined by two coordinates. Carana’s curve is described by two coordinates AND A FUNCTION (e^x). However, for our practical purposes, you could argue that you’re supplying a (parsimonious) function if you draw a line through the data points. After all, it’s not like three real world data points could really reject a linear relationship given sampling uncertainty, variability, etc. The real world is too messy for that.

        Like

      16. sj wrote:
        A line, geometrically, is fully defined by two coordinates. Carana’s curve is described by two coordinates AND A FUNCTION (e^x)

        As you say, two points cannot tell you whether an exponential trend is indicated but those same two points also cannot tell you a linear trend is indicated. The parallelism is perfect.

        Wikipedia will tell you an “exponential function” is of the form e^x, and, apparently, you can express any exponentially increasing curve in that form. In some cases I guess there’s an advantage to it. But when dealing with simple exponential growth Wikipedia uses a simpler approach that doesn’t involve using the number e.

        The parallelism between an exponential function and a linear function is exact. One increases incrementally by a constant amount added, the other by a constant amount multiplied. This screenshot shows the two functions side by side, the linear one increasing by a constant added amount of 0.10, the exponential by a constant amount multiplied of 1.10 (equivalent to a bank account increasing at the rate of 10% per year.

        sj wrote:
        However, for our practical purposes, you could argue that you’re supplying a (parsimonious) function if you draw a line through the data points. After all, it’s not like three real world data points could really reject a linear relationship given sampling uncertainty, variability, etc. The real world is too messy for that.

        I’m not familiar with the “parsimonious” term in this context. The function you choose to fit to the data will be the one that, statistically best matches the dots. This should be the one with the R^2 value closest to 1. I use my eyes as a guage and it’s usually pretty close to the statistical method.

        spreadsheet: https://mega.co.nz/#!OMgnCb6C
        decryption key: vchEWc690PTjcFDhTNBUuCHeRx6Ru2TRJgiszAxeoCs

        sj wrote:
        Is this clear enough for you now, so we can stop talking about it?

        I should ask you the question. And you should thank me. As my Dad always said, “Is there anything else I can do for you? LOL

        Like

      17. I’m not familiar with the “parsimonious” term in this context.

        Parsimonious gets used in science (with a slightly different definition than Webster supplies) to describe the simplest possible model.

        The function you choose to fit to the data will be the one that, statistically best matches the dots. This should be the one with the R^2 value closest to 1. I use my eyes as a guage and it’s usually pretty close to the statistical method.

        Sometimes yes, sometimes not so much. The choice of model (function) should be informed by physics. Perhaps air temperature from some location over the last decade will be best fit by an exponential trend— if you extrapolate it I guarantee you’ll be wrong, because you’re not accounting for physical sources of variability. Perhaps some other time series will be best fit by a funky 5th order polynomial. That may be a nonsensical model. An improved fit does not always mean an improved model— that’s “overfitting”.

        Like

      18. sj wrote:
        Parsimonious gets used in science (with a slightly different definition than Webster supplies) to describe the simplest possible model.

        Thanks.

        bill shockley wrote:
        The function you choose to fit to the data will be the one that, statistically best matches the dots. This should be the one with the R^2 value closest to 1. I use my eyes as a guage and it’s usually pretty close to the statistical method

        sj wrote:
        Sometimes yes, sometimes not so much. The choice of model (function) should be informed by physics.

        I meant in a purely statistical-best-fit scenario, or “all other things being equal”. Of course, the choice of trend depends on how large the data set is in relation to the time scope of the model. The exponential trend of sea ice loss carried a lot more weight in 2006, for example, than it did in 1985 or 1990. And physics didn’t help at all because the amount we knew compared to how much we needed to know was too low for a meaningful model result. In both cases you are extrapolating: physical knowledge in one case and empirical data in the other.

        According to Hansen:
        youtube: James Hansen – Climate Change a Scientific, Moral and Legal Issue- New Zeaand
        25:00
        We’re headed to higher temperatures if we stay on business as usual. And our understanding of that is based especially on the Earth’s history — how the Earth responded to changes in the boundary conditions in the past. Changes in atmospheric composition or the surface properties of the planet. And also we now have… beginning a few decades ago, we have satellite observations of the global climate and we can see how the Earth is responding to the changes — the changes in atmospheric composition are actually quite rapid now and climate models also help us, but they are not the primary contributors to our understanding — contrary to what the contrarians would have you believe. But they are important for helping us extrapolate into the future.

        In a case with very few elements, the truth of the extrapolation of the empirical data IS the physics. For example, the law of gravitation or the speed of sound or the speed of light.

        sj wrote:
        Perhaps air temperature from some location over the last decade will be best fit by an exponential trend— if you extrapolate it I guarantee you’ll be wrong, because you’re not accounting for physical sources of variability. Perhaps some other time series will be best fit by a funky 5th order polynomial. That may be a nonsensical model. An improved fit does not always mean an improved model— that’s “overfitting”.

        Well, yeah, you always have to remember what assumptions you’ve made, and how far out you can extrapolate. A methane model has to acknowledge that fuel will eventually run out. A sea ice model has to know that eventually the rate of land ice melt on Greenland is going to change everything. Myself, I would not dabble in polynomial extrapolation until I understood how a polynomial fit is obtained, and what the behavior of polynomials is. You can try to fit a polynomial to a pure exponential curve and it works OK for a short span of points but then goes haywire (in the one example I tried. I also tried, one time, to figure out an algorithm to create a polynomial fit. Seems like it’s a sytematic trial and error thing, but I didn’t go too far with it.

        Like

  17. What would you do differently if the “Methane-Emergency” story were to have some basis in fact?

    a) stop burning fossil fuel as soon as possible
    b) drill into the Arctic seabed, extract the methane, and sell it to burn — what the Methane Emergency group supports

    Russia is drilling and tapping Arctic seabed methane as quickly as they can now, already in progress.
    AMEG provides greenwashing: Russia is saving the climate by burning the gas before it erupts pocalyptically.

    You know how to look this stuff up. Whose needs do you serve by promoting AMEG’s story as if it were true?

    Proposal to extract, store and sell Arctic methane
    Solana, C., and Light, M.P.R. 2002. Can we turn a hazard into a development tool? The case of methane hydrates in permafrost. Abstract and Poster, EGS, Nice.. In: Roger J.E. Brown Memorial Volume.
    arctic-news.blogspot.cz/2012/05/proposal-to-extract-store-and-sell.html

    Like

  18. Here’s a screenshot of interactive spreadsheet where you can input values for Shakhova’s 2012 estimated emissions if you don’t like her numbers, and also input a value for what you think is appropriate for year 2000 emissions.

    I colored the input boxes green and the output boxes red, so you don’t screw everything up by changing the wrong box. You should save an original copy in case you do do something bad.
    The actual spreadsheet is on the MEGA website. The URL is https://mega.co.nz/#!eZREQIQY! and you will have to enter the decryption key when you get there. The key is 0xSxrHeQ82PprPbjMKhIsRDWbY5BPmcgSa0QwuxqyQ4

    There is a macro in the spreadsheet (in excel, a macro is just a Visual Basic program that is integrated with the spreadsheet), so your computer will give you a warning and ask you if you’re OK with that.

    As soon as you enter an input number for 2000 or 2012 emissions, the spreadsheet automatically updates the output numbers. But the doubling time number won’t update unless you click on the command button.
    When you click that button it updates the doubling time output box and also enters a line of data on the “dataOUT” worksheet. It enters the current input and output values, and that serves as a database for the scenarios you’ve tried. You can sort, organize, contemplate and chart them as you wish.

    I also uploaded a screenshot of the dataOUT page with a range of inputs and their respective outputs.

    I think it puts the question pretty well, and shows how sensitive the calculations are with such a short—12 year—timeframe. You could change the timeframe from 12 years to, say, 24 years, by changing the number in the gray box labeled “time span for growth multiplier” and I think you would see the calculations aren’t so sensitive to changes in inputs. By changing the timespan number, you are saying that Shakhova did her 17 Tg measurement in 2024 rather than 2012.

    You can clear the old data on the dataOUT page, but make sure to leave the labels across the top.

    This is how I think Sam Carana should have approached the Shakhova data. Just show what the implications are of an exponential assumption, and allow for a range of inputs, seeing as all measurements and estimations have error margins, so a range of possibillities is appropriate.

    Sorry for any bugs and inconveniences. Remember to save a fresh copy!

    Like

    1. That’s great except that you wrote two different things about the Shakhova 2012 number. Firstly you wrote that it was an estimate (which is correct) and later wrote that it was a measurement (which is incorrect). And picking an arbitrary number for 2000 is meaningless (maybe it was also 17 Tg – did you try that?).

      Like

      1. mike wrote:
        That’s great except that you wrote two different things about the Shakhova 2012 number. Firstly you wrote that it was an estimate (which is correct) and later wrote that it was a measurement (which is incorrect)

        Mike, thanks for the precise and thorough characterization of my error. I was simply sloppy. No other way to put it.

        Thanks again.

        mikeroberts wrote:
        And picking an arbitrary number for 2000 is meaningless (maybe it
        was also 17 Tg – did you try that?).

        I didn’t try it, Mike. Good suggestion. If you get the time and you trust my file, plug the numbers and post the results.

        My model may very well not be useful, as you say. I’ll probably play around with it and accumulate more emissions data, Ocean floor temp changes, etc. from the literature, and study more on the use of exponentials, and see what I can learn and maybe increase the complexity of the model, and maybe improve my reasoned justification for it. It’s just a model in its humble beginnings. You gotta start somewhere.

        Regards.

        Like

    2. bill shockley wrote:
      By changing the timespan number, you are saying that Shakhova did her 17 Tg measurement in 2024 rather than 2012.

      “estimate”, not “measurement”. Important distinction.

      Hats off to mikeroberts for catching this!

      Thanks for your interest, mike!

      Regards.

      Like

  19. Hi, All…

    I’ve been reading posts for some time now without replying much, but I’d like to just chime in briefly on RS’s blog roll worthiness rating when it comes to climate change info.

    In my experience, RS is much better than GM, Beckwith or Carana (which isn’t saying much at all, sorry…), but not as good as, say, someone like Peter Sinclair at http://www.climatecrocks.com (if anyone knows a better one than this, reply with a link here). I’ve found RS to be very informative with regard to describing the hard data of the weather, but leading at times with toward, well, something that might happen that is not yet happening, as in a fantasy novel – which amazingly RS apparently writes. No big surprise here. If one chooses to get his or her science from a fantasy cli-fi novelist, go for it, but I think it makes one pause from a rigorous scientific viewpoint, as it might lend one to imagining things that might not be there – as in the definition of ‘fantasy’. Just saying… The only other fantasy novelist to chime in on climate change, tragically, was Michael Crichton, and we all know (hopefully) how that turned out. Cough! Cough!

    Personally, I prefer to get my climate data from highly qualified climate scientist to save time and effort. GM is not a climate scientist, neither is Carana, and neither is Beckwith… None have been published on climate, and in my eyes do not have the authority to have credible commentary on climate change and its probable long-term effects. Shakova et al. do have the credibility to comment, but must their research must be considered as one voice among many colleagues how also have expertise in the field.

    Kudos to Hank, Mike, SJ and all others who help moderate fantasy land projections and keep us grounded in hard science.

    Balan

    Like

    1. Balan, hi, long no see.

      Upon hearing your idea that a fantasy writer disqualifies him or herself from serious science endeavor sounded kind of, well , phony! So, I went looking for archetypal counter-examples to prove the lie. Let’s see, what’s a good example of a fantasy writer who was also a major intellect and world-shaker and hopefully had a science sidelight. I figured it wouldn’t be too hard to find such a case since great minds tend to want to know everything and quite often have lots of energy to spread around. Fantasy, fantasy…. hmmm…. The Hobbit! JRR Tolkein. I even read that book once, over the course of a few days holed up in a cheap hotel, taking a break from having no shelter. Great read. Don’t remember much. High character and moral drama. Challenging.

      Looked up JRR. Seems to be considered the father of “high fantasy”. Do you know why they call it that? I would guess it’s either because it’s real good, or because it has an underlying seriousness to it. The characters are short and live underground but they have the same human traits as we do—courage, wanderlust, ambition, altruism, loyalty, averice, meanness, brutality, etc. I don’t remember much, but it seems the inside story was what kept me glued. It’s also possible there was good descriptiveness. Outdoors imagery. Done right, nature description can stir the soul. Turgenev. Probably my favorite reading experience. “The Hunting Sketches” Him roaming the Russian countryside with his dog and faithful servant Ermolai. You won’t be sorry if you check it out. Chekhov (“fiction is boring”) told his dissolute brother to “lay down and read Turgenev.

      Also, a friend of mine, when I met him, was reading the trilogy along with some of his friends and they they were enthralled, identifying with the characters and their tight bonds, forged stronger in battle. I’m guessing a lot, but that’s the impression I had.

      So, I’m thinking what makes fantasy good is not the fantasy part but rather the reality part. Tolkein was a philologist and contributed to some dictionary or other. Disciplined, exacting work, of a scientific nature, since it requires research into old and modern useage. Seems he had the breadth of soul to span the two disparate (not really) regimes. The fantasy work didn’t render his mind unfit, most likely to his great relief.

      Then there’s jw von Goethe, who, unbeknownst to me, up until now, wrote the “fantasia”, The Sorcerer’s Apprentice And yet he was also able to write a book about the theory of color, which was an empirical examination of color and light and the organ that received those external stimuli, while also doubling as a history of science. Goethe also was interested in geology (has a rock named after him) and botany (wrote a taxonomy that I believe was prominent for a while). Well, I don’t think I have to make the case for Goethe as a serious mind.

      I think it’s more a man’s integrity and competence, rather than the particular field that defines him.

      “All false arguments avail in the work of destruction. Only truth builds.” (paraphrase)
      jw von Goethe

      I have an even more pertinent quote if you would like to hear it. It’s a little longer and I’d have to look it up.

      Thomas Mann wrote one of the most engaging essays I’ve ever seen (I’m a fan of the essay), especially the opening few pages. It now introduces the volume, “The Permanent Goethe”, and was originally titled “Fantasy on Goethe”. Never was sure why he gave it that name, possibly to preempt the hems and haws of the Goethe scholars, or maybe to didactically highlight an older meaning of the word.

      RS has a book on Amazon that got 4.5 stars and 39 reviews. Not too shabby from my experience. From what I understand, he’s also going to school for meteorology, was a surfer on the East Coast, loves nature. Probably empathizes with Jennifer Francis in this way (she sailed around the world two different times, the second time, hatching her top-down jet stream thesis that changed the world she had circumnavigated. People who love nature want to preserve it. Such a vile motivation… Not saying this justifies or qualifies RS, or insures integrity. You have to check his facts and logic for that. LOL

      Regards.

      Like

      1. bill shockley wrote:
        Him roaming the Russian countryside with his dog and faithful servant Ermolai.
        should be

        Him roaming the Russian countryside with his dog and his faithful servant Ermolai.

        That was a little too awkward. LOL

        Like

    2. Speaking as someone who hopes to work in the fantasy/folklore/fairy story milieu, a healthy love for fantasy doesn’t mean those of us who have one perpetually live in fantasyland, or that we can’t comment on science matters.

      On the other hand, Scribber’s private blog still isn’t worth much as a resource for science info.

      Like

      1. will wrote:
        Speaking as someone who hopes to work in the fantasy/folklore/fairy story milieu, a healthy love for fantasy doesn’t mean those of us who have one perpetually live in fantasyland, or that we can’t comment on science matters.

        It’s a pretty crowded field. Seems like every actor and actress has written a children’s fantasy book.
        I’m pretty much a grinch when it comes to fantasy, but I admit it can have its charms and power. I watched Avatar a little bit stoned and felt overwhelmed through much of it.

        Will wrote:
        On the other hand, Scribber’s private blog still isn’t worth much as a resource for science info.

        Thanks for proving that once and for all. LOL

        Regards.

        Like

      2. PS, totally agree on folklore. Poets and bards traditionally travelled the land hunting down tales. Bob Dylan, for instance, has his roots deep and faithfully in the folk tradition and was always on the lookout for new songs. John Lomax travelled the South hunting down blues men and songs, recording them for posterity and accumulating a large archive. Folk tales are a rich and fascinating chronicle of the human soul. I cracked open a book of Russian folktales one time and was surprised to find one of my German grandfather’s “eye witness” anecdotes, pretty much verbatim. LOL

        Like

  20. Dear Scott,

    Long time no post.

    Would you do us a great favor in explaining in a single post how Sam Carana is misinterpreting satellite data and how this is how we’ve gotten to such a misunderstanding in GM’s work?

    In doing so, I’d like to take this factual info to GM for comment, not that he’ll respond to the factual data, but I’m hopeful he might – and back off of what I believe to be erroneous claims on the methane emissions issue.

    Cheers!

    Balan

    Like

    1. Howdy Balan,

      Well, I’ve seen someone valiantly attempt to explain to Guy that it’s meaningless and inappropriate to plot a point methane measurement on the end of a series of global annual averages, and that went nowhere, so I’d eat my hat if you could tune him in to the subtleties of the satellite dataset.

      I can tell you that when I asked one of the researchers who works with that satellite about the data Carana was plotting (I think that tracker website is gone now?), I was told that raw data source has no Quality Control applied to it at that point. But more importantly, there are complications interpreting the data over certain surface types— particularly at boundaries between surface types. (You can easily see the effects of that.) They’ve established that it was working well over open ocean, but it hasn’t been validated elsewhere. Hank posted a conference poster a while back, which led to me finding another relevant presentation.

      We can put that aside, though, as that’s mostly the fodder for Carana’s wild claims about identifying catastrophic releases from individual locations around the Arctic, and ascribing them to his theory du juor— hydrates, methane from the mantle, earthquakes… The biggest problem is claiming that the maps show something dangerous is happening when they don’t. (Just as the Robert Scribbler post we were recently talking about mistakenly claimed that hydrates must be disassociating because the Northern Hemisphere has a higher methane concentration… even thought that’s how it has always been and will always be.) If someone were to actually average the satellite readings and create a proper time series, they would see the same thing the surface flask record shows: a slow increase. If Guy bothered to actually read the scientific literature about methane, he would find that “clathrate gun” is not one of the plausible factors explaining that increase.

      Like

  21. A while back I emailed the AIRS Feedback Forum with a question someone asked at RC pointing to one of the Carana scary pictures. Here’s that question (excerpted) from RC:

    19 Jan 2012

    The Dec satellite image is up for Arctic atmospheric methane (at 400 mb) and it shows the darkest splotch of deep red (high methane concentration) over the ESAS (as well as over southern Siberia) that I have seen for December.

    It may or may not be the large blowout that some of us feared, but there is definitely something unusual going on with Arctic methane this year.

    ftp://asl.umbc.edu/pub/yurganov/methane/MAPS/NH/ARCTpolar2011.12._AIRS_CH4_400.jpg

    (And compare with December of last year–or any previous year …

    end excerpt

    AIRS Response from the Ask AIRS – Feedback Forum

    Thank you for the heads-up

    Color bars are very nonlinear, and the eye can be easily fooled. The comment you quote is reading too much into that image.

    That commenter should also view this image of the trend over the Arctic cap:

    ftp://asl.umbc.edu/pub/yurganov/methane/70-90N_VMR_CH4.jpg

    The early monitoring of CH4 had shown a small trend upward that stopped around 2000, for no known reason. Then the trend may have begun again around 2008. Looking at the trend plot, there is a very small increase since 2008. The variability is larger by a factor of five, and there was a large excursion in mid-2011 that reached the level last seen in mid-2003.

    AIRS Team

    Like

      1. Here’s the main page: http://airs.jpl.nasa.gov/

        On that page, here’s the “Ask AIRS” link that I used back in 2012: http://airs.jpl.nasa.gov/ask_airs

        They replied by email (what I quoted in part above); that may be the best way to get more information. They don’t seem to have a blog.

        Using their Search tool for “methane” the first hit on search results page is:

        Methane emission from the Arctic shelf? AIRS v5 and IASI low
        File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat
        Nov 14, 2012 … Methane emission from natural sources. (wetlands, permafrost, methane hydrates) are expected to increase with temperature, that makes the …
        airs.jpl.nasa.gov/system/presentations/files/44_Yurganov_rep.pdf

        Going through their search page works, for me, it gets that PDF downloaded.

        More generally — asking the scientists is the way to get current information.
        Ask the scientists actually providing the methane data what they think of the claims made, and nowadays, where the specific hotspots for methane are turning up recently (like 4 Corners). And so on.

        Like

      2. P.S., they have a ‘near real time’ data link — and those pulling data from there should read the instructions:

        “This memo examines differences between the routine processing and Near Real Time (NRT) processing of the AIRS Level 1b and Level 2 standard data products. Speed takes precedence over accuracy for the NRT data….”

        Like

  22. Chuckle. I tried poking around for that old FTP directory mentioned in 2012 — I think it’s gone or renamed. I have a suspicion why they might have moved it — try ‘oogle and see all the sites that were pointing to that, giving it the AMEG denial spin about vast plumes etc.:
    https://www.google.com/search?q=ftp+umbc+yurganov+methane

    As I said, the “Ask AIRS” link at the AIRS page is the way to inquire further, that’s their invitation.

    Like

  23. Don’t panic about methane hydrates, there are much better reasons to panic (about which something can be done)

    Marín-Moreno, H., T. A. Minshull, G. K. Westbrook, and B. Sinha (2015), Estimates of future warming-induced methane emissions from hydrate offshore west Svalbard for a range of climate models, Geochem. Geophys. Geosyst., 16, doi:10.1002/2015GC005737.

    “… We model the transient behavior of the gas hydrate stability zone at 400-500 m water depth (mwd) in response to past temperature changes inferred from historical measurements and proxy data and we model future changes predicted by seven climate models and two climate-forcing scenarios (Representative Concentration Pathways RCPs 2.6 and 8.5). We show that over the past 2000 yr, a combination of annual and decadal temperature fluctuations could have triggered multiple hydrate-sourced methane emissions from seabed shallower than 400 mwd during episodes when the multi-decadal average temperature was similar to that over the last century (∼2.6°C). These temperature fluctuations can explain current methane emissions at 400 mwd, but decades to centuries of ocean warming are required to generate emissions in water deeper than 420 m. In the venting area, future methane emissions are relatively insensitive to the choice of climate model and RCP scenario until 2050 yr, but are more sensitive to the RCP scenario after 2050 yr. By 2100 CE, we estimate an ocean uptake of 97-1050 TgC from marine Arctic hydrate-sourced methane emissions, which is 0.06-0.67% of the ocean uptake from anthropogenic CO2 emissions for the period 1750-2011.

    Like

  24. a link?
    doi:10.1002/2015GC005737

    Paste it into your browser search.

    As WIkipedia explains it:

    “Why use DOI?
    This approach avoids a number of common issues with citations in Wikipedia:
    Broken links as publishers or web server move or reorganise content (error 404).
    Copy-paste errors in citation text.
    Copyright violation, accidental or deliberate; the DOI citation goes to a source identified as appropriate by the rights owner.
    Verifiability enhancements; the DOI will always lead to the correct source, so modifications of abstracts or even content is avoided.
    Preferential treatment. DOI links, like our ISBN book sources, will offer the user a choice of sources where one exists.
    Academic users may receive a local full-text source”

    Liked by 1 person

    1. Based on my calculations, starting with reasonable assumptions, Carana’s polynomial extrapolation is plausible. It’s on the aggressive side, but based on what’s happening in the world, “Faster Than Previously Thought”… that’s reasonable too.

      Each of these scenarios yields a 3200 ppbv global methane level in 2035 in my exponential model:
      https://fractalplanet.wordpress.com/2015/01/08/once-more-mcphersons-methane-catastrophe/comment-page-2/#comment-4372

      Like

    2. I used the wrong year from Carana’s chart—should be 2030 rather than 2035. That narrows the possibilities:

      Like

  25. And — so what? There are lots of worst cases possible for lots of feedbacks from climate change.

    There is nothing special in particular we can do about arctic seabed methane hydrates. The only people pushing this emergency are those drilling into the formation to sell the methane as quickly as possible, as they’re doing now.
    They’re trying to sell their “asset” before it becomes a “stranded asset” that should be left in the ground.

    Care about climate change? Work on something you can change, the direct forcings. Fossil fuel, stop burning it.

    Like

    1. hank roberts wrote:
      The only people pushing this emergency are those drilling into the formation to sell the methane as quickly as possible, as they’re doing now.

      Really? How are they doing? Are they selling a lot of methane? Do you have links?

      Like

  26. I don’t get it… who would create an extinction scenario to get access to methane?! There are many places in the world where gas is beeing extracted without any extinction scenarios… sorry, i still don’t get it, sounds totally insane to me… creating an extinction scenario to get access to methane ?!

    Like

    1. Curious, as cynical as it sounds, and it definately sounds cynical, yeah ,it seems there are those who are more concerned with short-term profits than the long term health of the planet they’re kids are going to inherit. Just look at a smoke stack or industry drain pipe spewing crap into rivers and, well, there it is.

      Like

    2. I used to read the NYer… classy mag, but I never learned anything like what I read in Chomsky.

      Like

  27. John, thanks for the reply! I am trying to understand the possible implications of methane-eruptions as an effect of global warming for some years now. But i am just a layman and so it’s hard for me to get all the pieces together. The pieces seemed to add up over the last 2 years IMHO, there are those mysterious craters in Siberia, the SWERUS-C3 observations, the CAGE observations, the strange comment of Jason Box (“We are f’d”) last year, the methane eruptions in the Laptev Sea, the horrific temperature anomalies in the arctic, even Paul Beckwith and Albert Veli Kallio are in the clathrate-gun-boat now, there are some russian scientists now also who really seem to be worried about that methane and so on… News of methane eruptions seem to come up every week now, i collected a pretty bunch of em allready… At first it was said that methane can only erupt in hundreds and thousands of years, but that’s not 100% correct anymore, is it?

    So, if i do get it right, there are people like Sam Carana etc who made up this extinction scenario just to get their grip on methane (as it was said here in this thread) ?! Why then don’t they just get out and get that methane like any other ordinary enterprise?! All the other enterprises out there don’t need any made up (faked) extinction scenario to get what they want, there is no need at all to make up (to fake) any extinction scenario to get that damned methane, right? I am not quite shure, if I do understand correctly what you say… do you say that Sam Carana et al is just a conspiracy to make money?! Please excuse me, if i got you wrong here…

    Btw, here is a quite professional forum that is trying to understand the implications of methane also:

    http://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php?board=20.0

    Thank you very much for taking the time and sorry for my bad english !

    Like

    1. Something is out there to get us, I feel it in my bones for a long time with an animal-like instinct, the revenge of living Mother Nature will get us, I know it for more than 30 years… the climate news are getting worse every day now, the IPCC scenarios are too optimistic for shure… Mother Nature will get us, it is just hellish what has been done to Her just for stupid money and I silently cry every single day because of what has been done to Mother Earth, yes, it hurts so much.


      Message from the Kogi

      ‘From the beginning in Colombia
      everything, everything remained as it
      was
      among us,
      the native people;
      the same belief, the same mask,
      the same dance.
      Everything well organised, in order,
      A terrace for every animal.

      ‘Younger brother was permitted in 
      other places,
      other countries.
      There was a dividing line, the sea.

      ‘He said, ‘Younger Brother that side,
      Elder Brother this side.
      You cannot cross it.’
      Because this Colombia was the heart of 
      The world,
      Of the whole universe.
      ‘But Younger Brother came from
      another country
      and immediately saw gold
      and immediately began to rob.
      There were golden images,
      golden oracles.
      The Mama prophesied with golden
      Bowls,
      he had a golden tuma,
      he had everything
      and Younger Brother took it all to
      another country.
      ‘Now the Mama grows sad,
      he feels weak.
      He says that the earth is decaying.
      The earth is losing its strength
      Because they have taken away much
      petrol,
      coal,
      many minerals.

      ‘A human being has much liquid inside.
      If the liquid dries up we fall with
      weakness.
      This same thing can happen to the
      Earth,
      Weakness makes you fall,
      weakness.

      ‘So the earth catches diseases of all
      kinds.
      The animals die.
      The trees dry up.

      People fall ill.
      Many illnesses will appear
      And there will be no cure for them
      Why?

      ‘Because the Younger Brother is among us,
      Younger Brother is violating
      The basic foundation of the world’s law
      A total violation.
      Robbing.
      Ransacking.
      Building highways,
      Extracting petrol,
      minerals.

      ‘We tell you,
      We the people of this place,
      Kogi,
      Asario,
      Arhuaco:
      that is the violation

      ‘So the Mamas say,
      ‘please BBC
      no one else should come here,
      no more ransacking
      because the earth wants to collapse,
      the earth grows weak,
      we must protect it,
      we must respect it,
      because he does not respect the earth,
      because he does not respect it.’

      ‘Younger Brother thinks,
      ‘Yes! Here I am! I know much about
      the universe!’
      But this knowing is learning to destroy
      the world,
      to destroy everything,
      all humanity.

      ‘The earth feels, they take out petrol, it
      feels pain there.
      So the earth sends out sickness.
      There will be many medicines,
      drugs,
      but in the end the drugs will not be of
      any use.

      ‘The Mamas say that this tale must be
      learnt
      by the Younger Brother.’

      ( A message from the BBC documentary ‘From the Heart of the World – The Elder Brother’s Warning’ (1990) )

      http://www.theelderbrother.com/

      Like

      1. I read the story by the woman on the website who visited the Kogi. Very brave and intrepid and a good story-teller. That poor mule…. LOL

        I can feel their hurt. That man loves his mountain!

        Like

      2. Yes, they love and protect nature, they are in a deep connection with it and they feel responsible for it.

        If you’d like to see the complete BBC documentary:

        Like

      3. Sorry, the link pointed to a whole playlist, here the link to the documentary:

        Like

      4. Thanks for the link. Started watching but got diverted. I like the style of the documentary. That is a long time for a People to survive. Very intriguing. They must know some things. Goethe said, “Seek the truth… the old truth”.

        Like

      5. @Shockley & Spurious

        I find the Kogi to be a very informed community from watching the documentary called Aluna. I had our Uni buy it and add it our multimedia library. Looks like some folks at Google are big supporters, moral and financial. Modern people like ourselves, I think, would be wise to listen carefully to their message that all things are connected by invisible threads. Here’s to The Kogis!

        Balan

        Like

      6. @Balan

        I am glad you respect and take the Kogis serious, they really deserve it !

        Like

    2. Curious, your English seems perfect, but you haven’t really formulated a question.

      I think it’s pretty simple if you listen to James Hansen, who spends 40 well-qualified hours per week keeping up with the science. Methane is a troublesome sideshow till we get close to the +2C mark, at which point it’s pretty much game-over due to momentum from ocean heating plus the carbon and albedo feedbacks. That’s the best answer we have at this point, based on the scientific evidence.

      Methane emissions and mechanisms need to be studied closely to better characterize what is actually happening. Until we get better data, it’s really a lot of handwaving.

      It would be stupid to ignore the methane issue on the premise that there’s nothing we can do about it if it really is an emergency. Necessity is the mother of invention. Better to know before-hand and at least have a shot.

      Like

      1. Methane is a troublesome sideshow till we get close to the +2C mark, at which point it’s pretty much game-over due to momentum from ocean heating plus the carbon and albedo feedbacks. That’s the best answer we have at this point, based on the scientific evidence.

        Largely staying out of this, but pointing out for the watchers that this still isn’t true, despite repetition.

        Like

      2. Thanks again for the reply!

        @Bill Shockley: My question was if Carana et al faked that doom-scenario just to earn money with methan-extraction (as it was said in this thread here and elsewhere). This doesn’t make much sense to me for now. Is there any need to make up some doomsday-scenario just to extract methane? It just doesn’t make sense to me. They could just go out and get methane without any doomsday-scenario, couldn’t they? Maybe their datas are wrong, ok, maybe they are too nervous, too afraid, ok, but i really can’t believe that people like Paul Beckwith or Veli Kallio are part of some conspiracy to shake money out of methane :-) Carana et al could never suck as much methane as will be erupted if their doom-scenario should be really valid i guess :-)

        @SJ: Ok, i understand your point. But Hansen mentioned that 2°-mark and the methane thread as far as i know. So do you think that Hansen was wrong here?

        What about that geoengineering plan to “cool the arctic” that those AMEG/Carana guys are talking about? That sounds really strange to me. Any chance to “cool down” the arctic?!

        One thing for shure: We will all gonna die sooner or later anyway, with or without methane, no doubt. Modern zivilisation flees death, curses death, that’s why modern man is always on the run to collect money, to collect time and space, to collect things, to collect power via technology, to flee death at any cost. But the faster one tries to flee death, to flee loss, the sooner it will get one.

        Like

      3. See the link in my last reply to Bill. Hansen didn’t say that.

        AMEG is off the deep end, and no one should be paying any attention to Carana’s blog.

        Realistic geoengineering scenarios (either Solar Radiation Management or Carbon Dioxide Removal) are global endeavors. I haven’t seen any serious talk about Arctic-centric scenarios.

        FWIW, I agree that the clathrate doomers have nothing to do with energy extraction efforts. They’re just very concerned people who have unfortunately latched onto some dubious claims and garbled information.

        Like

      4. Curiouis,
        your original reply to Hank was correct, IMO. FF companies don’t need an excuse to go after resources. All they need is expectation of plunderous profits. The reason methane hydrates have not been exploited at commercial scale to date is because they haven’t yet found a safe and economically viable process. A couple good articles:
        http://geology.com/articles/methane-hydrates/
        http://worldoceanreview.com/en/wor-1/energy/methane-hydrates/

        Like

      5. Scott wrote:
        Didn’t say that, wouldn’t say that.

        No, you didn’t say that. Not sure why I said that. Sorry.

        Like

      6. Largely still in this, but pointing out that Scott has never bothered to clearly state what his point is (is Hansen wrong or am I misinterpreting Hansen?), and why.

        Like

      7. What happened is you made abundantly clear you DID NOT read the paper as well as you thought you did.

        Like

      8. @SJ

        Hansen didn’t say that.

        Sorry, but James Hansen said over and over again in the recent years that “2° Celsius of warming is a prescription for disaster”:

        http://tinyurl.com/nwvr52m

        And here we can hear exactly the same statement from his own mouth in a recent interview at ABC News (5.5.2015):

        http://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/breakfast/two-degrees-of-global-warming-is-not-safe/6444698

        See also:

        Click to access s40665-015-0010-z.pdf

        So point one was that maybe Carana et al could just be part of a conspiracy to earn money from methane- that point makes no sense and is just wrong.

        And point two was that allegedly Hansen didn’t say that the 2° Celsius- mark is game over/prescription for disaster ( as Bill Shockley said), wich is also wrong… btw: Hansen always clinged to a 350ppm- mark of CO2, now we are at ~ 405ppm.

        And what about the 30- year delay of CO2 ( http://www.skepticalscience.com/Climate-Change-The-40-Year-Delay-Between-Cause-and-Effect.html ), the aerosol dimming effect ( http://www.skepticalscience.com/print.php?r=267 ) and all the positive feedback loops ( http://tinyurl.com/osuxn23 )? We are at ~ +0.85° Celsius since pre-industrial level… where will we be when the lag kicks in more and more, when we reduce emissions and the negative forcing of the dimming effect is diminished and finally we add all the positive feedback loops?…

        Like

      9. Hansen warning that 2C is dangerous is entirely separate. Bill claimed Hansen has shown that 2C is some kind of catastrophic clathrate tipping point, based on a misreading of one of Hansen’s papers.

        The “40 year delay” thing has been widely misunderstood by the McPherson community (it doesn’t mean that you don’t get any warming until 40 years after emissions), and research on that question has produced a shorter interval if you ask more directly: http://arstechnica.com/science/2014/12/emit-some-co2-its-warming-influence-should-peak-in-about-a-decade/

        Noting that there are positive feedbacks in the system does not imply that the system will run away. After all, the planet warmed about 5C coming out of the last ice age— and stopped. http://www.skepticalscience.com/positive-feedback-runaway-warming.htm Climate scientists know about positive (and negative) feedbacks. They’re the ones that study them.

        Sam Carana’s blog is not a source of scientific information.

        Liked by 1 person

      10. @SJ

        Ok, thanks for lightning fast reply! I got your point:

        Hansen warning that 2C is dangerous is entirely separate. Bill claimed Hansen has shown that 2C is some kind of catastrophic clathrate tipping point, based on a misreading of one of Hansen’s papers.

        Hansen said in a declaration (2013):

        As for the present, there are reports of methane release from thawing permafrost on land and from sea-bed methane hydrate deposits, but amounts so far are small and the data are snapshots that do not prove that there is as yet a temporal increase of emissions.”,

        But he also says:

        Because human-made warming is more rapid than natural long-term warmings in the past, there is concern that methane hydrate or peat feedbacks could be more rapid than the feedbacks that exist in the paleoclimate record…

        Click to access J.Hansen_OR.Dec_.pdf

        So he actually stated that there is some potential risk for rapid methane feedbacks- that was in 2013. And there are some serious signs indicating that methane emissions are accelerating, for example:

        Thawing Arctic carbon threatens ‘runaway’ global warming

        … “We found that decomposition converted 60% of the carbon in the thawed permafrost to carbon dioxide in two weeks”, says Aron Stubbins, assistant professor at the University of Georgia’s Skidaway Institute of Oceanography. “This shows that permafrost carbon is definitely in a form that can be used by the microbes.”…

        At the moment, permafrost carbon is not a big factor in projections by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change.

        Dr Spencer says: “When you have a huge frozen store of carbon and it’s thawing, we have some big questions. The primary question is, when it thaws, what happens to it?

        “Our research shows that this ancient carbon is rapidly utilised by microbes and transferred to the atmosphere, leading to further warming in the region, and therefore more thawing. So we get into a runaway effect.”

        http://tinyurl.com/ngvjbuc

        Here the link to the full paper in “Geophysical Research Letters”:

        http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/2015GL063498/full

        All in all, Hansens statement that “2° Celsius is a prescription for disaster” doesn’t sound healthy in any way, may it be because of methane or else, does it?

        I will answere to the feedback issue in another post soon!

        Like

      11. There’s certainly a risk (which includes magnitude and probability).

        And there are some serious signs indicating that methane emissions are accelerating

        But at what rate? Makes a big difference. Look, this is almost certain to increase the amount of warming we experience, but there’s a lot of space between that and “OMG doomsday 2040”, so the fine details matter.

        All in all, Hansens statement that “2° Celsius is a prescription for disaster” doesn’t sound healthy in any way, may it be because of methane or else, does it?

        No reasonable analysis concludes that 2C warming will be a good thing, but there’s some danger in reading too much into statements like that. There are people like Hansen out there trying to really push for action, and trying to make it clear that this is serious. Here’s what I keep seeing: Hansen is speaking to a world mired in inaction, saying things like that to make his point, but folks like you who are already really concerned hear things like that and take them to mean something even worse than you imagined.

        So again, my point is that the details matter. The best projection climate science has is that if we keep continuing to increase and increase annual emissions, we’re looking at around +4C by the end of the century. (And that’s very bad.) Then you have Sam Carana’s (and Malcom Light’s) blog making simply ridiculous claims about +20C warming by 2040. That stuff belongs in the trash can, because it has nothing to do with reality. It’s just confusing and scaring people (who were already scared).

        Like

      12. sj wrote:
        Bill claimed Hansen has shown that 2C is some kind of catastrophic clathrate tipping point, based on a misreading of one of Hansen’s papers.

        Stop putting words in my mouth. Show me where I said this.

        Like

      13. @SJ

        Yes, you nailed it down:

        There are people like Hansen out there trying to really push for action, and trying to make it clear that this is serious. Here’s what I keep seeing: Hansen is speaking to a world mired in inaction, saying things like that to make his point…

        And this strategy seems quite reasonable in view of the fact that BAU continous for several decades now.

        … but folks like you who are already really concerned hear things like that and take them to mean something even worse than you imagined.

        Please don’t get me wrong, I did not say that the Carana- scenario is a must. I just try to get a clear view of Carana et al. Mostly the truth is somewhere in the middle and that’s bad enough already. One important aspect is:

        If the mainstream media should ever shout out the message “OMG doomsday 2040 !!”, then hell will brake loose and nobody will change anything anymore, we would end up a in a self-fulfilling prophecy leading to real hell. So even if the clathrate gun should be real I would’nt shout it out too loud for shure 8-)

        So you think that Carana et al are no conspiracy for making money out of methane, but their datas are wrong?

        Like

      14. And this strategy seems quite reasonable in view of the fact that BAU continous for several decades now.

        And to be clear, I agree. I’m just describing what I see as an unfortunate result that comes from communicating with an audience that is really many different audiences.

        So you think that Carana et al are no conspiracy for making money out of methane, but their datas are wrong?

        Right. Nobody knows who Carana is (as far as I know) but Malcolm Light appears to be a retired geologist. I certainly don’t see any route to profit for them. I think they’re just very misguided and a bit obsessed. It’s deeply unscientific stuff, regardless.

        Like

      15. Thanks for the correction, Scott. I also didn’t use the word “catastrophic”, which tends to convey “suddenness”. I used the same language as Hansen, i.e., “out of control” and “point of no return”.

        For those interested in the paper, google

        Assessing Dangerous Climate Change

        and also

        John Rennie PLOS ONE

        to see some coverage of the paper and a day-of-publishing interview with Hansen

        Like

      16. sj wrote:
        Here’s what I keep seeing: Hansen is speaking to a world mired in inaction, saying things like that to make his point, but folks like you who are already really concerned hear things like that and take them to mean something even worse than you imagined.

        So, he is not supposed to tell the truth about how things really are? If there’s a tipping point at 2C, he’s not supposed to say so, because people (like me and Curious) might get it confused with 2040/extinction? Seems like you, Scott, are the one trying to promote that confusion/conflation.

        Like

      17. @SJ

        Nobody knows who Carana is (as far as I know)

        “Sam Caran” is synonym for the whole team on http://arctic-news.blogspot.de/ , please see here (McPherson says it right at the beginning of the vid):

        … please don’t mind that I pointed you to the incredible McPherson :-)

        The members of that team are all reliable IMO, especially Paul Beckwith, Peter Wadhams and Albert Veli Kallio:

        http://www.lpc.uottawa.ca/members/beckwith/

        http://www.damtp.cam.ac.uk/user/pw11/

        http://www.academia.edu/5859691/Curriculum_Vitae_for_Exploration_and_Research

        Here some more of the Carana- team:

        http://1250now.org/who_we_are/

        Like

      18. I’ve heard McPherson surmise that Carana is a pseudonym for multiple people, but he’s just repeating what he heard someone suggest.

        Paul Beckwith made it clear that AMEG is not associated with Carana’s blog, and said that Carana was once a member of AMEG but is no longer. I think we can safely rule out Wadhams writing under the name, as well.

        Like

      19. @SJ

        Paul Beckwith made it clear that AMEG is not associated with Carana’s blog, and said that Carana was once a member of AMEG but is no longer. I think we can safely rule out Wadhams writing under the name, as well.

        Wow, Wadhams and Beckwith on your blog, well that’s quite impressive, didn’t know that^^

        I remember Beckwith was in Lima December, 2014 together with the AMEG (some months after they visited your blog):

        In the second part there’s Paul Beckwith:

        And the rest of it:

        Well, they are describing the same scenario as described on Caranas blog more or less and they show a short video (2013) with Peter Wadhams talking about Shakova, Semiletov and methane in Part 1, 01:20.

        I have to think about it for a moment and then come back soon. Thank you very much for now!

        Btw, I remember there was some arguing on Twitter between Gavin Schmidt and Peter Wadhams some months ago about Wadhams statement of a socalled “Blue Ocean Event” in the artic that might happen right this year… have you noticed that?

        Like

      20. Again, AMEG is off the deep end.

        Btw, I remember there was some arguing on Twitter between Gavin Schmidt and Peter Wadhams some months ago about Wadhams statement of a socalled “Blue Ocean Event” in the artic that might happen right this year… have you noticed that?

        Probably this stuff? https://twitter.com/SJvatn/timelines/514064203062452224
        https://fractalplanet.wordpress.com/2014/02/17/how-guy-mcpherson-gets-it-wrong/comment-page-6/#comment-2618
        https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BzOmEySKhRVOWjUxU0k4T0ZyYlU/view

        Like

      21. SJ wrote:
        Sam Carana’s blog is not a source of scientific information.

        No doubt much of the stuff is flawed, but some of the things he does are useful, because of his intense methane vigilance. The 5-year series of IASI images depicting January methane emissions is the strongest, clearest evidence of the growth of methane emissions from the Arctic Ocean, that I know of. I found them useful, and RobertScribbler has cited Sam’s work several times. Props where they’re due!

        Like

      22. No props whatsoever are due, and nothing of any value has emerged from that blog.

        The 5-year series of IASI images depicting January methane emissions is the strongest, clearest evidence of the growth of methane emissions from the Arctic Ocean, that I know of.

        What happens to methane concentrations in the Arctic when emissions increase elsewhere around the planet, Bill?

        Like

      23. No doubt much of the stuff is flawed, but some of the things he does are useful, because of his intense methane vigilance. The 5-year series of IASI images depicting January methane emissions is the strongest, clearest evidence of the growth of methane emissions from the Arctic Ocean, that I know of. I found them useful, and RobertScribbler has cited Sam’s work several times. Props where they’re due!

        Bill, I’m glad you’ve realised that much of Carana’s stuff is flawed. Now you need to take the next step. Because much of it is flawed, it’s of no use whatsoever as a source of information on what is happening in the Arctic. If he gets the odd piece right, you’d never really know, without thorough checking yourself.

        Regarding the alleged 40 year delay between cause and effect (an idea much loved by McPherson), I wish the Skeptical Science piece hadn’t used that particular headline because it’s misleading (OK, it’s wrong), even though the article itself probably gets it about right. CO2 starts to trap heat immediately it’s in the atmosphere. It’s properties don’t magically appear 40 years later.

        Like

      24. Curious wrote:
        * btw: Hansen always clinged to a 350ppm- mark of CO2, now we are at ~ 405ppm.*

        And what about the 30- year delay of CO2 ( http://www.skepticalscience.com/Climate-Change-The-40-Year-Delay-Between-Cause-and-Effect.html ), the aerosol dimming effect ( http://www.skepticalscience.com/print.php?r=267 ) and all the positive feedback loops ( http://tinyurl.com/osuxn23 )? We are at ~ +0.85° Celsius since pre-industrial level… where will we be when the lag kicks in more and more, when we reduce emissions and the negative forcing of the dimming effect is diminished and finally we add all the positive feedback loops?…

        Hansen largely avoids timeframes, such as the 30-year delay, and instead focuses on temperature targets and fossil fuel budgets. Whether it’s a 10 year or 30 year lag is not important. It’s how much CO2 we put in the atmosphere. It makes a huge difference whether we target 850Gt or 500Gt (i.e., adding 480Gt vs 130Gt).

        This is all covered in “Assessing Dangerous Climate Change”. Basically, CO2 must be addressed first and primarily, because it is time-sensitive. The other ghg’s can be addressed later as opportunity allows, because they don’t stay in the atmosphere very long. And removing the non-CO2 ghg’s can approximately cancel the aerosol negative effect.

        Reforestation and soil management can draw down CO2 if we don’t wait too long, but again, it’s not the #1 priority, as this can be done any time within reason. At the time he wrote the paper he thought 100GtC would be a reasonable target. Lately, however, he says that new science has discovered that the global CO2 sink is increasing significantly, rather than decreasing, as was predicted, so he thinks it’s realistic to increase the target beyond 100Gt. This drawdown would be a huge and necessary advantage for meeting the Atmospheric CO2 target.

        The other major point of Hansen’s strategy is a strong nuclear energy element. I guess you heard that in the radio interview you posted. In “Assessing Dangerous Climate Change” he cites the example of France, which went from 8% electricity from Nuclear to 70% in 10 years (1977-1987), so it can be done quickly, and it will “solve the problem”.

        And, of course, a fair price on carbon is necessary and, policy-wise, is the “only way” .

        It’s nice of you to drop in, Curious, you bring some much needed fresh air!

        Like

      25. sj wrote:
        What happens to methane concentrations in the Arctic when emissions increase elsewhere around the planet, Bill?

        If “elsewheere” is close by, say, Yamal province, depending on wind-direction consistency, you might be able to confuse the source, but even then, I would expect to see a tail going back to the source. The further away the “actual” source is from the Arctic Ocean, the more mixed and diffuse the extra methane is going to be once it gets there, and you’re not going to have a discrete cloud over the Arctic Ocean. This is just common sense. The 2007-2012 rise in methane levels measured at Mauna Loa does not appear as a discrete cloud over Mauna Loa, where it is measured, and it is not assumed that Mauna Loa is the source. Is the 4-corners cloud presumed to be sourced elsewhere than 4-corners?

        Like

      26. You sure about you can eyeball the difference?

        You think you accounted for precipitation patterns affecting high-latitude wetlands, too? Don’t you think it’s weird you seem to be pinning half the global increase on the ESAS (judging by your comments about your spreadsheet) when actual methane studies don’t invoke it? I’ll once again point back to this: http://www.see.ed.ac.uk/~shs/Methane/Nisbet%20Methane%20Rise%20Again%202014.docx

        Considering the latitudinal zones in more detail (see the second figure), Arctic methane rose more than the global growth rate in 2007, but since then Arctic growth has tracked global trends. Large emissions attributed to decaying methane hydrates have been reported from the East Siberian Arctic Shelf ( 6) but are not apparent in NOAA atmospheric observations, nor are they detected in isotopic measurements from surface and aircraft sampling in the European Arctic ( 7), which point to wetlands as a major Arctic source in summer and industrial gas leaks in winter.

        Like

      27. Not to mention the vertical aspect. I would expect the data for the vertical column to be pretty much irrefutable.

        Like

      28. mikeroberts wrote:
        Regarding the alleged 40 year delay between cause and effect (an idea much loved by McPherson), I wish the Skeptical Science piece hadn’t used that particular headline because it’s misleading (OK, it’s wrong), even though the article itself probably gets it about right. CO2 starts to trap heat immediately it’s in the atmosphere. It’s properties don’t magically appear 40 years later.

        Totally agree. I guess I should have specified which version of “delay” I was referencing. Hansen uses the concept, “heating in the pipeline”, and he would define “delay” as the time it would take for the energy imbalance to come into equilibrium. For instance, let’s say we completely stopped emitting greenhouse gases today, and the energy imbalance is 0.5W/m2. He would calculate, based on an ECS of 3.0C a required surface temperature rise of about 0.4C and then using equations to calculate the rate at which the oceans can absorb heat (and to be more accurate would also an allowance for land and land ice), would come up with the amount of time for the surface waters to come up 0.4C. But, like I said, he has these numbers but chooses to leave them out in most situations. He might also include a correction to that calculation based on the decay of CO2 and other ghg’s during the equilibration period which, for CO2, would be negligible.

        mikeroberts wrote:
        * If he gets the odd piece right, you’d never really know, without thorough checking yourself.*

        That’s the “kootie principle”, which is ridiculous. Now that excellent 5-image illustration is off-limits to everybody who believes in proper attribution.

        Some people find it useful to survey his blog for valuable nuggets. Sometimes they’re rewarded.

        God, we’ve been through this already. Do you prefer lies from authorities to truth from nobodies?
        I believe Ruppel and Hoerling are lowly liars. I called Archer a liar, but I should really check to see if his slide showing 0.3Mt/Year methane emissions from the Arctic Ocean in 2014 was intended to mean what I take it to mean. EVERYTHING has to be proved. I completely trust Hansen on most things, but if I want to argue with an advanced scientist who disagrees, I have to understand and provide the proof myself, or be defeated. That’s how it should be. That’s why Scott is right to challenge the scientific basis of the images in Carana’s illustration. And we both learn from the discussion. What you’re advocating is censorship.

        Like

      29. Bill, people are free to read Carana’s blog. I’m not advocating censorship (gosh, there is plenty of rubbish on the Net), I’m suggesting that pretending Carana’s musings are a source of valuable information (nuggets) is not going to get you anywhere other than strengthening belief systems that are already well ensconced. You certainly couldn’t make reference to the blog to back anything up when confronting anyone who isn’t already besotted with that persona’s writings, because there will be too much in the writings that is just plain daft. If you don’t want to follow my suggestion, that’s up to you but I hope you don’t post such references here as any kind of information.

        Like

      30. @Bill Shockley

        Basically, CO2 must be addressed first and primarily, because it is time-sensitive. The other ghg’s can be addressed later as opportunity allows, because they don’t stay in the atmosphere very long.

        Right, but we have to keep in mind that CO2 is “the sting we poke the dragon (methane) with”, as Jason Box said.

        Lately, however, he says that new science has discovered that the global CO2 sink is increasing significantly, rather than decreasing, as was predicted, so he thinks it’s realistic to increase the target beyond 100Gt. This drawdown would be a huge and necessary advantage for meeting the Atmospheric CO2 target.

        The global carbon sink budget is a complicated, not settled issue, I wouldn’t bet too much on it:

        http://www.benjerry.com/values/issues-we-care-about/climate-justice/carbon-sinks-tapped-out

        http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2015-04/icl-plr042715.php

        http://www.climatenewsnetwork.net/plant-growth-may-speed-up-arctic-warming/

        http://phys.org/news/2015-04-soil-carbon-stable-previously-thought.html#inlRlv

        The other major point of Hansen’s strategy is a strong nuclear energy element. I guess you heard that in the radio interview you posted. In “Assessing Dangerous Climate Change” he cites the example of France, which went from 8% electricity from Nuclear to 70% in 10 years (1977-1987), so it can be done quickly, and it will “solve the problem”.

        Well, I konw that Hansen votes for nuclear energy. I don’t. France is a “good” example:

        http://agreenroad.blogspot.de/2012/03/la-hague-nuclear-waste-nightmare.html

        http://uk.reuters.com/article/2015/05/06/uk-france-areva-la-hague-idUKKBN0NR0CU20150506

        I live in Europe/Germany. Chancelor Merkel stepped out of nuclear energy after Fukushima- the private energy sector took all the profit and left all costs, many billion euros, to the german public. Now the citizens of Germany have to pay for the shutdown, for the nuclear waste and so on. But where to put all the nuclear waste? There is a fight going on in Germany for years and years now where to put all the nuclear waste. Nobody wants it and so it is beeing moved around and around endlessly. Once was said “no problem, we just put it under the earth, there it will be save forever”, but it’s not, the deposits are already leaking very badly. All this waste is already enough to kill the whole federal budget over the next years and decades, it will just kill the federal budget, suck it out totally.

        Who will inherit all that nuclear waste? The progeny.

        And, of course, a fair price on carbon is necessary and, policy-wise, is the “only way” .

        Yeah, but how much should a gallon gasoline cost? How much is a fair price when the real costs are to be included (human lifes in arabic countries, ecological destruction, CO2 emission and so on)? 100$? 500$? Dunno. In the long run only the richest will be able to afford gasoline, food, water etc… that’s the problem. Emissions trading? That plan failed already, capitalism simply can not cure CC, it’s just a dream that capitalism could cure CC. It’s a joke to believe that the same profit-system that drove us into the shit will get us out of it, money can fix some things, but it can’t fix everything :-)

        Like

  28. Curious, my opinion for what ever it’s worth, I’m not a scientist by any means, is that methane may be more of a problem than one might think at first blush. At least the methane resting in the shallow waters off the Siberian shelf and that on land in permafrost. Reason being, if I understand correctly, the methane is enclosed in ice. Ice starts to melt at +1 degree C, 33 degree F or so I’ve been told.

    It seems to me if that’s true and if the methane is encapsulated inside that ice, if the ice melts, the methane will escape. If, as many are saying, the arctic is warming up, eventually it will reach a point where that ice will melt. If indeed the ice IS melting, a big if, it’s only a question of time.

    Liked by 1 person

    1. Unfortunately, that kind of back-of-the-napkin simplification doesn’t help us understand the real world situation.

      Like

    2. @John

      Thanks for reply,

      yes, i am quite shure that there is a potential risk of accelerating methane emissions leading to runaway warming. Let’s see what additional methane news 2015 (including El Nino) will bring, we have really good chances to brake the global temperature record of 2014. Yes, it’s just a matter of time as you said, it may be a few decades or it may be several centuries, as Hansen said in his declaration of 2013 (see above). The recent signs are more and more pointing to decades, not to centuries IMO, let’s see what time will bring…

      Like

      1. Thanks SJ, I defer to your expertise on this.

        Still in all, it strikes me that if there is a gas under pressure trapped in ice, when the ice melts, the gas is going to escape (be freed). If I’m oversimplifying that, and I probably am to some extent (depth of the ice, how fast it’s thawing, where it’s at etc), the physics of it as I described it seem rather obvious.

        Like

      2. There probably are some areas where free gas trapped within permafrost, but it’s not really like a tank with a lid. And clathrates are actually methane molecules within molecular lattices of ice. But yeah, it’s the temperature (and pressure, for clathrate stability) this stuff is under, the depth heat has to penetrate, etc. It’s not that there’s a huge reservoir of gas trapped under 31F ice, and so once we get a degree of warming it’s all off to the races.

        In general for permafrost, the issue is really the thawing that allows organic matter to be decomposed by bacteria, converting it to CO2 or, to a lesser extent, methane.

        Like

  29. Curious, I tend to think when it comes to issues that involve something as… scary, I guess, as climate change, most people, except for a few anarchists, are going to lean towards the conservative in their projections. Especially those appointed by government and BAU corporate interests to set things to rights. Meaning make sure society continues just as it always has.

    My unprofessional guess, considering how fast things are degrading and how often I read the phrase “worse than expected” is that the CC situation is probably about twice worse than we’re being told. I could be way off. Just a feeling.

    Like

    1. In chronological order of dated article. Just a quick look.

      15 Feb 2009
      AAAS: Global warming will be worse than expected, scientist warns
      http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/earth/environment/climatechange/4630408/AAAS-Global-warming-will-be-worse-than-expected-scientist-warns.html

      20 May 2009
      Climate Change Odds Much Worse Than Thought
      http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/05/090519134843.htm

      3 Dec 2009
      Global warming ‘will be worse than expected’ warns Stern
      http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2009/mar/12/climate-change-scienceofclimatechange

      7 Aug 2012
      NASA Scientist: Climate Change Here, Worse Than Expected
      http://www.sanctuaryasia.com/component/content/article/8953-nasa-scientist-climate-change-here-worse-than-expected.html

      6 Nov 2012
      New Scientist Special Report: 7 Reasons Climate Change Is ‘Even Worse Than We Thought’
      http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2012/11/26/1219981/new-scientist-7-reasons-climate-change-is-even-worse-than-we-thought/

      12 Nov 2012
      Climate Change Is Probably Going To Be Worse Than Any Of Us Expected
      http://www.businessinsider.com/climate-change-likely-to-be-severe-2012-11?op=1

      30 March 2013
      IPCC: Effects of climate change ‘worse than we had predicted’
      http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2014/3/30/ipcc-climate-changeglobalwarmingimpacts.html

      3 April 2013
      Climate Change Worse Than Expected, Argues Lord Stern
      http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/climate-change-worse-than-expected-argues-lord-stern/

      31 Dec 2013
      Climate Change Worse Than We Thought, Likely To Be ‘Catastrophic Rather Than Simply Dangerous’
      http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/12/31/climate-change-worse_n_4523828.html

      30 April 2015
      Overlooked evidence – global warming may proceed faster than expected
      http://www.theguardian.com/environment/climate-consensus-97-per-cent/2015/apr/30/overlooked-evidence-global-warming-may-proceed-faster-than-expected

      “The greatest shortcoming of the human race is our inability to understand the exponential function.” – Prof.
      Al Bartlett

      Like

      1. @John

        “The greatest shortcoming of the human race is our inability to understand the exponential function.” – Prof. Al Bartlett

        Haha, I cited that too recently on another blog. The hockey-schtick, it just gets worse and worse. Thanks for the links, I can send you mine, I don’t count them anymore, the news are coming faster than I can eat them.

        I am waiting for the paradigme shift, because as long as monetary profit is more important than survival, it will just get worse and worse, feel the hockey-sting. I can’t see a real paradigm shift. It’s all about econonic growth and grabbing ressources (money) at all cost. That’s just like it is. It’s about justice in the long run. Social and ecological justice. My guess is that the crash down has to come first. It must hurt, before the masses awake (including the socalled “Elite”) and baseline shift in global conscience happens. For now Shell is seeking for oil in the melting arctic while the next climate conference will be in December, Paris. People who say “Alarmist!” are always people who didn’t get really hurt by climate change, injustice, waste, poisening of the environment, slavery and so on… but when one asks people in the slums of Africa or Southamerica (watch out for Sao-Paulo this summer!), nobody would shout “Alarmist!”. It must hurt, as Bob Marley sang, “Who feels knows it nor”:

        @SJ

        How many climate conferences will we see (I have seen many) until a real paradigm shift happens? How much must it hurt until we got things done? It’s all about less instead of more and more and more material things, isn’t it? I prefere clean water over cars and clean air over flying to vacation and real, living, wild forests over gulf courses. I love nature, but I don’t like money… sounds childish, doesn’t it?

        Like

    2. @John

      Yeah that’s the factor that i’d call “psychological latency”. Isn’t the world we are living in more kind of a phantasy made in Hollywood all in all? The socalled “American Dream”? Most of the people of the industrialized world just want to cling to that dream and don’t want to wake up. It’s the illusion that god or the experts or Bruce Willis will get us out of the shit anyway. So let’s pray and leave the rest to the experts… uhm, i’m glad to be not an expert 8-)

      Like

      1. Sorry SJ.

        Curious, I’m not saying everything is doom and gloom. But we are kind of being told that by some on one side of the CC debate. Hearing just the opposite from the other side. For people in the know like SJ, they can feel more confident that their side of the issue is probably correct, but for the rest of us it can be a bit more confusing. Everyone on all sides of the debate (and there are more than two) are convinced by their interpretations of the same information and the rest of us just have to decide who’s got it right.

        Yet another side in the CC argument,

        The lukewarmers don’t deny climate change. But they say the outlook’s fine
        http://www.theguardian.com/science/2015/may/03/climate-change-scepticism-denial-lukewarmers

        Go figure.

        Like

      2. You don’t have to be sorry. I’m just saying that you can search for any phrase and list the hits, and you’re particularly going to get hits when you search for a kind of study media outlets are more likely to cover using a phrase that is popular for headlines. It’s not a good metric for the state of a field of science, in which 99% of studies go uncovered.

        Like

      3. @John

        I’m not saying everything is doom and gloom.

        Well, as I mentioned above, it all comes down to wether one is affected by CC, wether one feels CC with ones own flesh and bones or not, doesn’t it? For the 11 million people in Sao Paulo eg things are pretty much doom and gloom, but for the lukewarmers everything seems to be fine (for now), cause they are not affected, not hurt by CC (for now).

        About the Guardian article you linked:

        Many contrarians claim it’s because of the slowdown in surface warming in the past 15 years or so. But scientists – including Lewis – have tested this and most agree the slowdown has little effect, because the studies take account of heat going into the ocean.

        New findings show that the missing heat indeed went into the ocean and into the atmosphere:

        20.5.2015 – Climate change: Global warming slowdown tracked to Indian Ocean

        http://www.livemint.com/Politics/pbwSHC0MQD2oVcemPnDI6O/Climate-change-Global-warming-slowdown-tracked-to-Indian-Oc.html

        “ 14.5.2015 – Climate scientists find elusive tropospheric hot spot

        http://phys.org/news/2015-05-climate-scientists-elusive-tropospheric-hot.html

        Like

  30. sj wrote:
    You sure about you can eyeball the difference?

    It goes by pretty fast (looking at the top video–the CO2 visualization) but as you get used to the view you start to make out the sources. I think this supports rather than undermines my view. Especially the tails that I posited. How do you get a cloud without a tail back to the source unless the source has shut down? A slow motion look and analysis would be instructive. Alternately, a methane video would be pretty conclusive!

    sj wrote:
    Don’t you think it’s weird you seem to be pinning half the global increase on the ESAS (judging by your comments about your spreadsheet) when actual methane studies don’t invoke it? I’ll once again point back to this:

    You seem to conclude the Yurganov IASI data does not constitute a study.

    My model provides the ability to test scenarios of ESAS production and guesses at baseline emissions (pre-1985, or whatever year you would like to use) vs outcomes of global contribution to growth. I had suggested 25-50% as reasonable for global contribution to growth, but plug in your own numbers. I believe Shakhova, herself, suggests the ESAS is the main contributor and most likely has citations of her own.

    There’s a lot of factors. Seasonality, peculiarities of emissions due to ice cover, etc.. For instance, I’m really curious why the “January Series” provides the clearest evidence of a gradual growth trend, when it is not the season of expected maximum omissions? Or, maybe it should be, if you allow time for heat propagation into the sediments?

    I would like to know how isotopic measurements can distinguish between wetlands and ESAS sources. Perhaps wetlands are going to be more biogenic-leaning, but as far as I know, ESAS emissions have not been definitively characterized vis isotopic makeup.

    Either way, I would like to see a wider sampling of studies. The ones I came across led me to narrow the possibilities to fracking, boreal wetlands and the ESAS. Fracking seems to be a small contributor, per the numbers in the recent ClimateProgress article and pending a closer examination.

    Like

    1. Go find me studies concluding that the ESAS is an important contributor to the methane trend since 2007, and then we can talk.

      Like

      1. No, it doesn’t. Measuring some methane concentrations does not constitute a study of emissions patterns explaining trends in global methane.

        Like

      2. Large emissions attributed to decaying methane hydrates have been reported from the East Siberian Arctic Shelf ( 6) but are not apparent in NOAA atmospheric observations

        So, according to NOAA, Shakhova is a liar and Yurganov is chopped liver.

        Like

      3. No. Just no. Why do you insist on acting like this?

        Maybe it’s not that every scientist except the first three you’d heard of are dirty crooks and liars. Maybe you don’t understand a topic you only have a passing and recent familiarity with better than people who have spent their lives on it. Maybe you shouldn’t force turf-war readings of every frickin’ paragraph. Maybe that’s a tedious and useless habit. Maybe the world is complicated, and there are lots of people trying to figure it out.

        I’m done for today, this irritates me too much. I’ll leave any new comments lie until tomorrow.

        But maybe you should start your own blog, Bill, instead of spending all your time arguing on mine.

        Like

      4. sj wrote:
        Why do you insist on acting like this?

        I resent the tone “Go find… ”

        I responded in kind.

        With 2 facts.

        Shakhova is a study.
        Shakhova contradicts NOAA.

        I fully intended to track down more studies, and your attitude is not going to help me do that.

        Like

      5. We should not fight over CC. We’ll have to fight over water and food soon enough, so let’s spare our energy for what is to come.

        Like

      6. A lot of arguing going on when it comes to climate change. The range is from denier to doomsday prophet. I think everybody has a right for his own opinion and to argue for it, as long as there is no “ad hominem” slamming and bashing. But obviously there is slamming and bashing on both sides:

        Johnson is working to sustain the omnicide.

        http://guymcpherson.com/2014/12/how-scott-johnson-gets-it-wrong

        Man !, what does the author want to tell us here? That you are a mass murderer?! Those kind of statements don’t help anybody, it’s just starting a fight. Let’s get our heads together.

        Nobody knows exactly what the future will bring. If I say “The weather is fine” and sombody else answeres “No, it’s not, it’s terrible, it’s like the end of the world”, that’s just fine. But if he would have said “No, it’s not and your are an idiot”, that’s not fine anymore, that just disqualifed himself.

        @SJ

        I do understand and respect your opinion. You are a fairly young person and you do have hope, you must have hope to see a future for yourself, for your generation and even for your children, if you want to have some. Your generation needs hope. Sometimes I have the nightmare, that this generation might loose hope- that would be the day when they will look at the older generations and ask some questions like “Why did you rape the planet and we have to live with it ?!” and I am really afraid of that day to happen. When the young generation looses hope, than there will be terror and civil war.

        Then there are the white-bearded guys who have been through a lot, who have seen much political and ecological ignorance, injustice and disaster for years and years and for decades, always the same lost fights against injustice, against ecocrimes, against the machine. And some of them lost hope totally and just see the end of things as they get older and older and nothing changed the destructive system.

        Aren’t there really legitimate arguments on both sides?

        Like

      7. So, to be clear, I feel no need to argue with someone who is more pessimistic or optimistic about the human response to climate change than I am. That’s the kind of opinion we’re all entitled to. We can have interesting conversations about it, but I don’t think anyone is “wrong”. It’s only incorrect notions about the science of the climate system I’ve argued against here.

        Like

      8. @SJ

        So, to be clear, I feel no need to argue with someone who is more pessimistic or optimistic about the human response to climate change than I am. That’s the kind of opinion we’re all entitled to. We can have interesting conversations about it, but I don’t think anyone is “wrong”. It’s only incorrect notions about the science of the climate system I’ve argued against here.

        I see and fully agree. I came here to see more clearly about the Carana/MCPherson- scenario. And you have always been kind and fair in your replies to me. I have seen some very ugly comments against you at MCPhersons blog. I don’t like that style. The sound on MCPhersons blog is quite morbid, feels like a tunnel of horror. So I learned something about the style on MCPhersons blog and I have to admit that I don’t like that style. We have to respect one another.

        You say that you don’t think anyone is wrong. Well, maybe the MCPherson gang is wrong, maybe you are wrong. I think it is just legitimate to express ones own impression that anyone else might be wrong, why not. It’s just a question of the style, the way in wich one expresses oneself. I don’t see any reason to attack you the way I saw at MCPhersons blog.

        They are talking about love and acceptance and “to never forget your own insignificance” ect at MCPhersons blog:

        “To love. To be loved. To never forget your own insignificance. To never get used to the unspeakable violence and the vulgar disparity of life around you. To seek joy in the saddest places. To pursue beauty to its lair. To never simplify what is complicated or complicate what is simple. To respect strength, never power. Above all, to watch. To try and understand. To never look away. And never, never to forget.”

        ~ Arundhati Roy

        http://guymcpherson.com/2014/12/how-scott-johnson-gets-it-wrong

        But they fight against you. Why?! If there will be an extinction, then why fight anymore?! If “the caucasian, white men” think, they will survive (as GM said in his blog), then why fight against them? When there really is a 100% chance for human extinction within the next decades, then there is no reason to fight in any internet blog or elsewhere anyway anymore. When there really is a 100% chance for extinction, then i’d say:

        Relax, it’s too late for any defend, for any fight, just relax and accept. We fought our whole life against ecocrimes, against injustice, against the machine- now we’ve lost and don’t have to fight anymore. So relax now, lay your burden down and go forward. But the MCPherson gang seems to be fussing and fighting for nothing. If we are all dead anyway, well then, dead men don’t fight.

        Like

      9. Curious, I don’t think Scott is saying that GM is not “wrong” but that anyone’s opinion on how well or badly this will all turn out can’t be wrong or right; it’s just opinion. However, as Scott has shown, GM’s characterisation of the science is often wrong. We can have opinions about our feelings but we can’t have opinions about the facts.

        Like

      10. Yes, Scott says that McPherson is wrong and that’s just legitimate. I agree with you. We can’t have opinions about the facts, but we can have opinions how the collected facts will turn out in the near or far future. And no matter what opinion about the future we might have, we have to express it without attacking eachother while trying to understand the opinion of anyone else. That’s all we need as a base for a fruitful conversation.

        Like

  31. Bill,

    You’re way out of line here in my view. Stop being ideological in your tenacity and start providing links to studies if you want to be taken seriously.

    Thanks,

    Balan

    Like

    1. Balan wrote:
      You’re way out of line here in my view. Stop being ideological in your tenacity and start providing links to studies if you want to be taken seriously.

      Thanks for your opinion. I’ll provide links when I feel it’s necessary. I think Scott knows how to ask for one.

      Define “ideological”. I hate ideological.

      Like

      1. Bill:

        A great example of ideological would be believing that SJ is a Koch-funded blogger without being able to provide any evidence whatsoever to support one’s claim.

        Yes, ideological.

        If you can’t figure out my meaning, or look it up in a dictionary, I’ll quote you an email to me from GM himself demonstrating the point.

        I don’t know how SJ puts up with your massive arrogant BS over such an epic duration. I’ve been holding back now for too long.

        Cheers,

        Balan

        Like

      2. Must be an inside joke, because I don’t get it.

        You implied that you agree with the charge that our host is a “Koch-funded blogger” without any evidence, while simultaneously professing that you “wouldn’t claim [that].”

        Like

      3. Balan wrote:
        A great example of ideological would be believing that SJ is a Koch-funded blogger without being able to provide any evidence whatsoever to support one’s claim.

        Bill Shockley wrote:
        Even though I think it’s likely and even though I think he behaves that way, I don’t believe I could prove it, so I wouldn’t claim it. Please show me where i did.

        Will wrote:
        You implied that you agree with the charge that our host is a “Koch-funded blogger” without any evidence, while simultaneously professing that you “wouldn’t claim [that].”

        I can’t prove that SJ takes money from Koch. I only claim that he acts that way. That is provable depending on how you define “acts that way”.

        Like

      4. Bill:

        Here is another example of ‘ideological’, or in GM’s words, “philosophical”. Not exactly what I was hoping for from a Conservation Biologist claiming to be “climate scientist”. Again, with permission granted shortly after the emails were written, only publishing now.

        Jun 23, 2014
        Your description of my approach is accurate. Your final words describe why
        I will not engage with SJ. He’s not interested in radicalism (i.e.,
        getting to the root). He’s interested only in furthering his perspective.

        I recognize my mistakes, and learn from them. That’s how I arrived at this
        philosophical place.
        [emphasis mine]

        … original message

        On Sun, 22 Jun 2014, Greg Brooks-English wrote:

        Dear Guy,

        After reading this…
        “I’m not interested in engaging with SJ. He’s afflicted by the
        arrogance of humanism, and he loves industrial civilization. He’s not worth my time,
        and he clearly won’t be convinced by evidence.”

        “I’ve attached two of Garrett’s papers. You can read the press release
        for the first paper here:
        http://unews.utah.edu/news_releases/is-global-warming-unstoppable/

        “The science is simple. Civilization is a heat engine. The only way to stop
        warming the planet is to terminate civilization.”

        …I hear that you want to communicate with people who value humans as just
        one part of the web of life and want to relate from a paradigm of
        partnership rather than domination? Likewise, you’d like humanity to value
        other species of life, and see them as integral to human survival on what we
        call Earth? You’d also like those you talk with and discuss these issues as
        understanding the hugely destructive impacts that industrial civilization is
        having on our biosphere? And on top of all this, you’d like to spend your
        time in a way that uplifts and nourishes you, especially with those who
        share your own reality?

        Does any of what I’m saying resonate with you?

        Hugs,

        Greg

        Like

      5. Balan wrote:
        A great example of ideological would be believing that SJ is a Koch-funded blogger without being able to provide any evidence whatsoever to support one’s claim.

        Even though I think it’s likely and even though I think he behaves that way, I don’t believe I could prove it, so I wouldn’t claim it. Please show me where i did. I think you have me confused with someone else.

        Also, please tell me why claiming such a thing is ideological. And eventually we can then apply that definition back to your original claim.

        Balan wrote:
        If you can’t figure out my meaning, or look it up in a dictionary, I’ll quote you an email to me from GM himself demonstrating the point.

        If you think it will help, I’d appreciate that.

        Balan wrote:
        I don’t know how SJ puts up with your massive arrogant BS over such an epic duration. I’ve been holding back now for too long.

        I’m not at all interested in proof of my arrogance or massiveness. If you have any point of fact or logic you’d like to make that deals with the subject here , then follow your own advice and post on topic.

        Like

      6. Even though I think it’s likely and even though I think he behaves that way, I don’t believe I could prove it, so I wouldn’t claim it.

        hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

        Ahh… thanks for that. A nice morning pick-me-up.

        Like

      7. sj wrote:
        hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

        Must be an inside joke, because I don’t get it.

        Like

      8. Bill:

        Anyone reading this blog knows what we are talking about… you’ve been hounding SJ for nearly a year and what have you proven, what amazing light have you shown on the issues of climate change, and how Scott Johnson Gets It Wrong – I’ll answer that question, nearly zero. I say nearly zero because sometimes you do catch SJ at some minor error, but nothing ever major. Thus, your arrogance and ideological bent. You see SJ, without any evidence, by your own admission here, as a “Koch-funded blogger” without any evidence except that “he acts that way”. I completely and utterly disagree with you assertion, based on what? List his actions that indicate that and let’s debate them right here and now, because I’m so done with your BS and have had it up to here with it.

        Balan

        Like

      9. Bill:

        You asked me to give you more examples of “ideological” using GM’s email correspondence with me, which GM gave me permission to publish, thus here is one example:

        On Monday, June 23, 2014 12:01 PM, Guy R McPherson
        grm@cals.arizona.edu wrote:

         I'm not interested in engaging with SJ. He's
         afflicted by the arrogance of
         humanism, and he loves industrial civilization. He's
         not worth my time,
         and he clearly won't be convinced by evidence.
        
         I've attached two of Garrett's papers. You can read
         the press release for
         the first paper here:
         http://unews.utah.edu/news_releases/is-global-warming-unstoppable/
        
         The science is simple. Civilization is a heat
         engine. The only way to stop
         warming the planet is to terminate civilization.
        

        So, to spell this out for those that still cannot understand, why is this ‘ideological’? Well, GM has labeled SJ as an ‘arrogant humanist’ ‘industrial civilization loving’ ‘not open to evidence’ kind of person. When a scientists labels someone like this with a static label it cuts off communication and does not further any sort of debate. In my time on this blog I can attest that if anyone is not interested in the evidence, it is GM. SJ has engaged non-stop for over a year with the evidence, GM hardly anything. As for the charge that SJ is an ‘arrogant humanist’, I know that SJ does not see humans as the be-all and end-all of life on Earth and strongly recognizes the vital contributions of other species on Planet Earth (ex. he LOVES cats) to human survival and thrival (ex2. he loves water). Furthermore, as to ‘industrial civilization loving’, for all its ills, and it has many no doubt, including possible extinction of our species, that same industrial civilization that GM hates so much and wants to end is the same one that has given us renewable energy sources that are rapidly scaling right now and could power civilization without much heat by 2050, access to the billions of galaxies via Hubble and a soon to be released satellite that is 100 times more powerful, and countless advances in science from microchip technology that is enabling this very conversation, and much much more. Are there problems with it, certainly… Can we overcome them to live in balance with the sources of life, it remains to be seen. Must we exert our energy to change the direction of industrial civilization and transform it into yet something much more profoundly enduring and expanding and humane, most definitely. I try hard to become a vegetarian and must try harder.

        One of the most inhumane things I’ve ever seen any human do is label someone else, which in essence is a way of passively killing them – enabling the eventual physical killing. Gandhi once said that passive violence is much more dangerous than active violence because it enables the former. GM is passively killing SJ, and is unaware of his own in inner violence. That kind of violence will come out in any community in which GM lives, making an eco-village an eco-hell. I know GM has major relationship problems living in his aptly-named Doomstead – and wherever you go there you are. Partly due to this, he is selling his Doomstead. When I listened to GM a year ago I was on my way to following in his example of “dooming” my own life and that of my family. Due to his own ideology, he actually quit the University of Arizona as a tenured professor, which was a way of actively killing himself, perhaps. Next, he built his Doomstead at ground zero for desertification in the USA investing most of his life-savings, maybe another consequence of his own ideology. Now he is confronted with a new life he has chosen for himself – a life of scarcity (I’m sure he sees it as abundant, and damn, if I was in his situation I’d do my best to see it that way, too…). Do me and my family want to follow in his footsteps? Not really… While we respect him on the one hand for following what he believes to be true, certainly the methane issue is not true, which is the entire thrust of his “evidence”. And having been given the “evidence” he still persists at claiming “the clathrate gun has fired”. To me, and I believe most others, that is ideological in the extreme.

        As for you Bill, yes, it seems that you are following in GM’s example, like I once was heading, and I’d like you to stop and and smell the roses. I’d like you to engage with SJ not seeing him as a “Koch-funded blogger”, but instead as an Ars Technica blogger who in his free time likes to engage with issues that inform his writing, and that he’s not paid for his opinions on this blog (no ads), but genuinely trying to help correct a very serious inaccuracy that he sees worth correcting. I’d like you to appreciate this reality, and have some gratitude for how much time SJ gives to all of us. I, for one, am immensely grateful to SJ for helping me not make the same errors as GM, for example, in moving to New Zealand and giving up my amazingly cool job for another much more risky and dangerous one, possibly dooming us. In ten years, if I choose, I can retire and then find a way to move to New Zealand if things look like that kind of choice might be necessary.

        Cheers,

        Balan

        Like

      10. Yeah, GM doesn’t want to engage in a scientific discussion with those who might have a decent handle on the science, and will find all sorts of reasons to not do so, including labelling those people, often in terms that apply to GM himself (“won’t be convinced by evidence”). It’s easier to pretend that someone who disagree with him is not someone who’d listen to reasoned argument.

        It’s good that you’ve come to see GM as he really is but don’t throw out the baby with the bath water. Civilisations have always damaged the environment. That some apparently good things have come out of this one doesn’t mean that civilisation is worth saving – saving it damages the environment.

        New Zealand is probably a good place to be, relative to most places that people live (which is why I moved here). But don’t wait until you retire, unless you have a lot of money. It can be pretty hard to get here, though I’m not up on the latest rules, unless you have money, and harder the older you are.

        Like

  32. Dear John,

    I know you mean well in posting all sorts of things regarding depletion of global diversity, but I believe it i has very little if anything to do with the topic of this blog post, which is coming back to GM’s assertion that ‘the clathrate gun as fired’. If you want to post off-topic like this please don’t spam us here, but do it over at General Climate Discussion 2, if you really feel you need to. I think most of us get that we’ve lost 50% of biodiversity in the last 40 years and we are headed for serious life-threatening trouble if we don’t change. You needn’t repeat that off-topic and ad-nauseam here.

    Thank you,

    Balan

    Like

  33. Dear John,

    Again, your Guardian article is off-topic and belongs in General Climate Discussion 2, not here. As much as it was interesting to get this article, I’d like this blog post to remain on-topic. It’s hard enough tracking everything in the climate change arena without you posting off-topic.

    Thanks for your consideration.

    Balan

    Like

    1. SJ, well it IS your blog so it’s nice of you to allow us to post opposing pov here. My guess is that most blogs are not run as democratically, though I don’t know as this is the only one I post too. So I wasn’t apologizing for my opinion (although come that, it wasn’t my opinion anyway, just a comment on the diversity of opinions in the CC community). But anyway, thanks for your patience on this your blog.

      Balan, you know, I kind of think people make a little too much about who should post what and where but if you think it’s off topic or you feel offended in someway, I’ll post CC and, I believe, related articles on the other uh… thread. I’m not particularly a ‘blogger’, so I’m just learning the lingo. The way I tend to read and comment is I just click on both threads and read the last few comments (except for the eternal arguing parts which I just skip) and if I think some article I saw is related in some way (I’ve never posted anything on wood carving or carpentry) I’ll post it hoping others might benefit from the info somehow.

      Again, as I said above, this is SJ’s blog, I’m just glad we all have this venue to vent on once in a while.

      Like

  34. Let’s get back to business. Some hours ago I stumbled over some lectures at the Consortium of Ocean Leadership, including a lecture from Dr. Kevin Schaefer (National Snow and Ice Data Center):

    http://policy.oceanleadership.org/events/public-policy-forum/2015-public-policy-forum/2015-ppf-video-archives/#schaefer

    Dr. Schaefer is talking about the temperature anomalies in the arctic permafrost:

    When we see a temperature increase of 2° C in 20 meters depth we find that quite alarming…

    He also mentions that there are 1700 GT of carbon stored in the permafrost. And he says that “recently it has been recommended at a UN conference that the IPCC do a special assessment focusing just on permafrost emissions, because none of the IPCC future projections took permafrost emissions into account, therefore they underestimate the climate impact of permafrost emissions over time.” Furthermore, permafrost monitoring networks also have been recommended.

    Well, that seems to be a step further in the “mainstream” to taking permafrost thawing and permafrost emissions into account, a scenario that has been left out by the IPCC projections so far.

    Like

  35. Biill Shockley wrote:
    Basically, CO2 must be addressed first and primarily, because it is time-sensitive. The other ghg’s can be addressed later as opportunity allows, because they don’t stay in the atmosphere very long.

    Curious wrote:
    Right, but we have to keep in mind that CO2 is “the sting we poke the dragon (methane) with”, as Jason Box said.

    I don’t see any disagreement here between what I wrote and what Jason Box said.

    I hope you realize that everything in my post is a paraphrase of Hansen from his “Assessing Dangerous Climate Change” paper.

    Curious wrote:
    The global carbon sink budget is a complicated, not settled issue, I wouldn’t bet too much on it:

    Thanks for the links. You’re quite well informed. Hansen agrees that the carbon cycle is not well understood, especially the new evidence of the direction it’s taking. But apparently they have strong quantitative evidence.

    Yeah, the nuclear waste problem is a huge issue. Hansen says generation IV technology will be able to use up these waste piles (but he doesn’t say when):

    “Most of today’s nuclear power plants have half-century-old technology with light-water reactors [243] utilizing less than 1% of the energy in the nuclear fuel and leaving unused fuel as long-lived nuclear ‘‘waste’’ requiring sequestration for millennia. Modern light-water reactors can employ convective cooling to eliminate the need for external cooling in the event of an anomaly such as an earthquake. However, the long-term future of nuclear power will employ ‘‘fast’’ reactors, which utilize ,99% of the nuclear fuel and can ‘‘burn’’ nuclear waste and excess weapons material [243]. It should be possible to reduce the cost of nuclear power via modular standard reactor design, but governments need to provide a regulatory environment that supports timely construction of approved designs.”

    He’s all for renewables, but he’s realistic about how fast and how far you can go with them. Earth is dealing with an expiration date.

    Curious wrote:
    *Yeah, but how much should a gallon gasoline cost? *

    Hansen’s answer is however much it HAS to cost to get the job done—which is reduce emissions at the necessary rate to achieve the atmospheric CO2 target (approximately, below 350ppm). You’re so informed about Hansen, I’m surprised you haven’t heard his carbon-tax spiel. He’s totally against the cap-and-trade schemes, as too complicated, too hard to administer, lacking transparency, and too easy to circumvent. They have been totally ineffective. A true carbon tax charges FF companies at the first point of sale, and 100% of the proceeds are distributed evenly on a per-capita basis (what is called 100% revenue-neutral), plus families get up to 50% more for up to 2 children. It’s a totally fair and effective scheme, that can be done simply, cheaply and with total transparency, all of which are necessary for success. And the end result is stimulative to the economy.

    Curious wrote:
    * It’s a joke to believe that the same profit-system that drove us into the shit will get us out of it, money can fix some things, but it can’t fix everything :-)*

    I like capitalism if it can be done right. There’s a lot of nature in it. But seeing is believing. Less than pure iterations of a carbon tax have been tried. Europe has a large tax on gas and diesel. They per-capita carbon footprint is half that of the US, I believe. British Colombia tried it and is still using it with good results. Australia tried it with good results, but the system they adopted was not transparent, was not revenue-neutral, and the people thought they were being screwed. It is just too obvious not to tax carbon (let alone continue to subsidized it).

    Seeing is believing. The carbon tax can be rolled out gradually, starting low and increasing the tax year by year. People will be able to feel and witness its success or failure. This is the implementation Hansen recommends. And he predicts it will be very popular—as it is in BC.

    Like

    1. @bill shockley

      I don’t see any disagreement here between what I wrote and what Jason Box said.

      Yes, I did not intend to say that there’s any disagreement in what you wrote, just wanted to mention what Box said.

      Yeah, the nuclear waste problem is a huge issue. Hansen says generation IV technology will be able to use up these waste piles (but he doesn’t say when)

      One thing for shure: There will be no nuclear energy in Germany anymore, no matter what kind of technology. The Merkel administration already stepped in and out several times, after Fukushima she can’t go back to step in once more, the citizens of Germany would lynch her. The nuclear companies took all the profits and left all costs (billions and billions of euros) to the citizens of the German Republic, the people don’t trust the nuclear companies in no way anymore, they are in fact very, very angry about that whole issue. So no more nuclear power in Germany for shure.

      Btw: Who thinks that it could be reasonable to trust nuclear power when that kind of business practicies took place in Germay? The same goes with the energy companies in general, the people in Germany simply don’t trust those companies anymore, who always take the profits and leaves the costs to the citizens. Now there is a huge debate going on in Germany about renewables. We are already paying for it, the costs for private household grow and grow, but the power grid has to be upgraded for wind and solar first, but the energy companies delay and delay the necessary proceedings further and further, they just like to earn money with coal, oil and gas as long as they can :-) So please don’t think that Germany is the greenest country in the world as the american news often seem to imply. I see more and more SUV on the streets etc etc, it is all BAU, with just a bit of whitewashing, that’s all for now. Sorry, no better news from Germany.

      So, a very first step to get things really done would be to de- centralize, to municipalize the whole energy business (and many other businesses too). As long as that doesn’t happen, there will be no chance for any CC plan at all, the energy companies are interested in earning money at first and always, CC comes later… maybe. And there is absolutely no interest to leave the business to the community, it’s just the other way around: Everything get’s privatized in Europe, man, even mountains(!), forests, cultural buildings are beeing sold and privatized now in Europe, no joke ! So let’s get things straight:

      When will the energy companies (like Shell, who is searching for oil in the melting arctis right at the very moment) leave the energy supply to the community? It will take several hundred years at least I guess. Energy companies just want to earn money, money, they are not interested in saving the world, cause there is no real profit in it :-)

      I like capitalism if it can be done right.

      I heard that a thousand times already. But, sorry, all I can see for now is that capitalism is always just interested in making money, more money and more money. That’s ok if they like to- but I simply can not see any money opportunities in saving the world from CC, that’s the main problem. One can earn money or save the world, but not both, that plan fails day by day already. We were told that everything will be fine, when all public sectors are privatized and so the German Republic sold nearly all public sectors to private companies. What do you think came out of that neat promise? Robbery, total robbery. The infrastructure now falls apart, because the private companies want to earn money, but they are not interested in keeping the infrastructure healthy. Everything gets privatized more and more: Hospitals, postal offices, security, universities, schools, water, just everything. I just have to watch to Detroit eg, we soon will have the same situation here all over Europe, there is no public money anymore, all communities are bankrupt, they had to “save” the banks again and again. Well, that’s capitalism. One can buy and privatize the whole world, shurely, but I doubt that this will do anything good for the planet.

      So, I am really curious what the money people will really do about CC… I am still waiting as time goes by :-)

      Seeing is believing.

      Yes, exactly.

      Like

      1. @Curious, Bill and John

        Hi, ALL.

        I’ve noticed tons and tons of off-topic posts in the past weeks that have little to do directly with the topic of McPherson’s methane claims.

        Would you be so kind as to be aware that the topic you are posting is relevant to blog post category before posting? I think many of off-topic posts would appropriately be posted in General Climat Discussion 2. I really want to focus here on McPherson’s methane claims and I want new visitors wanting information about that to get accurate information on that topic and not have to wade through reams and reams of other stuff. I won’t call it mud.

        Thanks for your awareness and consideration.

        Balan

        Like

    2. Well, perhaps I should have said, I like capitalism IF it could be done right. Not sure it could.

      Hansen seems to suggest sometimes that China could become the leader that makes the right moves and shames the US into doing the right thing. I wonder if there’s some hope there. Stephen Chu, Obama’s former Energy Secretary has tried to steer China that way, making personal trips and using his connections.

      I agree with you that capitalism, today, is really sick. Industrialism + capitalism is a bad mix. Noam Chomsky, Richard Heinberg.

      I”ve been rich and I’ve been poor. I seem to be more generous when I’m poor. When you’re rich you lose sight of the value of things. “None of them along the line know what any of it is worth”.

      Like

      1. Capitalism asserts that the egoism of the individual leads to prosperity for everyone (trickle down “theory”)- wich is simply a comfortable lie. Capitalism is a snowball system based upon greed and exploitation, it is the “musical chairs” game, in the end nobody will be left:

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musical_chairs

        Did you know that there are still native communities out there who don’t even have a name for for such thing like “possession”? What doe we really possess in the end? Nothing.

        Like

      2. Curious wrote:
        Did you know that there are still native communities out there who don’t even have a name for for such thing like “possession”? What doe we really possess in the end? Nothing.

        But would those societies seem so wondrous if we didn’t have the opposite?

        On their own feet they came, or on shipboard,
        Camel-back, horse-back, ass-back, mule-back,
        Old civilisations put to the sword.
        Then they and their wisdom went to rack:
        No handiwork of Callimachus
        Who handled marble as if it were bronze,
        Made draperies that seemed to rise
        When sea-wind swept the corner, stands;
        His long lamp chimney shaped like the stem
        Of a slender palm, stood but a day;
        All things fall and are built again
        And those that build them again are gay.

        From Lapis Lazuli
        WB Yeats

        “The urge towards freedom is the urge towards death”
        –Thomas Mann

        Tragedy wrought to its uttermost

        Like

      3. But would those societies seem so wondrous if we didn’t have the opposite?

        I don’t know if those nomadic societies are more “wondrous” than modern societies, modern societies can be seen as “wondrous” also. But after all it seems to me that the real problems began when Homo Sapiens became settlers 10 000 years ago. Since then there is a war going on against nature that obviously can’t be won. All grand settler-societies broke down at some point… now settler-society is global… nobody will build it up again should it fail once again, I am afraid. The dinosaur-society once ruled the world, when it fell, nobody built it up again.

        Btw: The AMEG website at ameg.me is down for at least a week now… I’m wondering why…

        Like

      4. Curious wrote:
        I don’t know if those nomadic societies are more “wondrous” than modern societies, modern societies can be seen as “wondrous” also

        I agree, that was my point in quoting Lapis Lazuli. I’ve really enjoyed some fiction literature that did serious research into “primitive” societies and/or ancient societies, my main examples being Thomas Mann’s Joseph Tetralogy in which he retells the bible story starting with, I think, Isaac. Realism applied to fable; and Thomas Berger’s Little Big Man. Foreign modes of consciousness brought to life, revivified, reestablishing the connection between here and there, then and now.

        Curious wrote:
        * it seems to me that the real problems began when Homo Sapiens became settlers 10 000 years ago*

        Hansen talks about that frequently, citing a stable sea level as the factor that allowed coastal settlements to persist, where fishing provided a reliable source of protein. I think he says more like 5000-6000 years ago is when that began. Maybe the last great sea level rise was Noah’s flood? Or perhaps that was just the most recent Noah’s flood.

        Goethe said, referring to nomadic people, that sleeping under the stars is an ennobling experience.

        Curious wrote:
        Since then there is a war going on against nature that obviously can’t be won. All grand settler-societies broke down at some point…

        Richard Heinberg talks about that. I love RH!

        Curious wrote:
        now settler-society is global… nobody will build it up again should it fail once again, I am afraid.

        We’ll certainly have a lot less to work with for possibly many millenia–hundreds? Sick, expanding oceans; expansion of hot, dry land; fewer species; the survivors shaking their heads.

        Like

      5. @bill shockley

        As the Kogi Mamas said: We are brothers, elder brothers and younger brothers. They could learn from us, we could learn from them. I am shure that those BBC guys learned something out there in Columbia. And they could help the Kogi people with medicine. A good start.

        “Lapis Lazuli” is a fine piece, I didn’t know it. Ah, Thomas Mann, I only read some of his shortstories so far, I love his writing style (Joseph Campbell said, Thomas Mann was his guru). So, unfortunately I didn’t read the Joseph Tetralogy so far.

        Realism applied to fable… Foreign modes of consciousness brought to life, revivified, reestablishing the connection between here and there, then and now.

        Yes, do you know C. G. Jung or Richard Campbell? I am quite shure^^ Have you heared about Jungs “Red Book” recently?

        Hansen talks about that frequently, citing a stable sea level as the factor that allowed coastal settlements to persist, where fishing provided a reliable source of protein. I think he says more like 5000-6000 years ago is when that began. Maybe the last great sea level rise was Noah’s flood? Or perhaps that was just the most recent Noah’s flood.

        Well, I think it must have been when the great glaciers of the north hemisphere began to retreat more and more, so sealevel was rising. That was even bevore Babylon, Assyria, Sumer. Do you know the archaeological findings of Göbekli Tepe and Catal Hüyük?

        https://aediculaantinoi.wordpress.com/2011/08/18/the-origins-of-organized-religion-revised-version/

        It dates back around 9500 years. There humankind built the first temples made of stone, not citys. It was far way from any coast. Around those cacred places there are the first real settlements made of stone. First came a change in cult/religion (it settled in temples), then came settlement and agriculture. So it was not climate change that was the main cause for settlement, it must have been a change in culture, spirituality, conscientiousness, thinking, feeling, a new vision of the gods and humankind.

        You mention Noah. Do you know The Epic of Gilgamesh? Noah is Utnapishtim in the Epic of Gilgamesh:

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilgamesh_flood_myth

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sumerian_creation_myth

        Older stuff than the Bible. Flood myths can be found around the world. As I said, mostly because of the great northern glaciers retreat, when the warmperiod of the last ice age began.

        We’ll certainly have a lot less to work with for possibly many millenia–hundreds? Sick, expanding oceans; expansion of hot, dry land; fewer species; the survivors shaking their heads.

        Some call it Samsara…

        Well, if there will be any survivors. Since 200 000 years ago, when Homo Sapiens came into the game, it always depent on the willingness to work together voluntarily. It would mean real change, real justice, real peace, a real vision of a paradigm shift. But I’m not too optimistic about that one^^

        Like

      6. Curioius wrote:
        As the Kogi Mamas said: We are brothers, elder brothers and younger brothers. They could learn from us, we could learn from them. I am shure that those BBC guys learned something out there in Columbia. And they could help the Kogi people with medicine. A good start.

        I haven’ finished watching the documentary. And often it takes me 2 or 3 watches to get everything because my mind wanders. That piece by the woman who traveled there was so good! Her observation that many of the commoners on the mountain had distrust and disdain for her and plainly showed it when their eyes met.

        Curious wrote:
        “Lapis Lazuli” is a fine piece, I didn’t know it.

        Thanks for liking that. LOL. I was forced to read that as a freshman in college and didn’t really appreciate it till much later.

        Curious wrote:
        Ah, Thomas Mann, I only read some of his shortstories so far, I love his writing style (Joseph Campbell said, Thomas Mann was his guru). So, unfortunately I didn’t read the Joseph Tetralogy so far.

        I came by TM via Hesse. Mann wrote the introduction to a paperback version of Hesse’s novel, “Damian”. I was impressed by the style and depth of his writing there. Mostly I admire Mann’s essays. He’s got several volumes of literary criticism. “Past Masters” is the title of one and includes studies of the classic German writers. Mann was a big fan of the short story form. He said most of his novels started out as short stories. “The Magic Mountain”… can you imagine? You mention Joseph Campbell, who I hadn’t heard of, but he’s a mythologist and that reminds me that the concept of myth is one of Mann’s main themes. I guess you could call some of his stuff anthropology of the intellect. There’s a lot of that in his Joseph work. Deep time in the human sense. As only Mann could do it.

        Curious wrote:
        Yes, do you know C. G. Jung or Richard Campbell? I am quite shure^^ Have you heared about Jungs “Red Book” recently?

        I had a short dalliance with Jung when I was young. He was like a more accessible Freud. Jung and Freud crossed the ocean together and in transit one was said to have developed a death wish for the other. It was probably Freud who had the wish since he had more to lose, being Jung’s mentor. I feel like Darwinism won over the minds of the world as the philosophy of the age and German depth psychology is largely forgotten. But, yeah, Jung had that universal consciousness thing…

        Curious wrote:
        So it was not climate change that was the main cause for settlement, it must have been a change in culture, spirituality, conscientiousness, thinking, feeling, a new vision of the gods and humankind.

        You could be right. However, you are not contradicting me. Settling and staying settled are not the same thing. If the ocean keeps washing you away, you’re never going to grow too large or too complex.

        Curious wrote:
        You mention Noah. Do you know The Epic of Gilgamesh? Noah is Utnapishtim in the Epic of Gilgamesh:

        I had a friend in college who couldn’t stop talking about it. I read it and remember almost nothing–not even an impression. I didn’t even know what culture or language it came from. LOL

        Curious wrote:
        Older stuff than the Bible. Flood myths can be found around the world. As I said, mostly because of the great northern glaciers retreat, when the warm period of the last ice age began.

        There were some seriously fast flooding episodes during that period on the order of a meter per 20 years. Stay tuned.

        Curious wrote:
        Some call it Samsara…

        Hesse used that word in “Siddhartha”. He translated it as getting lost in Life’s games–“letting go”…

        Curous wrote:
        Well, if there will be any survivors. Since 200 000 years ago, when Homo Sapiens came into the game, it always depent on the willingness to work together voluntarily. It would mean real change, real justice, real peace, a real vision of a paradigm shift.

        That’s like a chicken/egg thing. What came first, the tribe or the cooperation? Have you noticed that a lot of tribes’ names translate as “the people”? That gives them the right to do anything they want to not-peoples. Even in this day and age, our constitution begins, “We, the people”. Should be taken as a warning to the rest of the world.

        Curious wrote:
        But I’m not too optimistic about that one^^

        Yeah, I was thinking the same thing–will we learn anythng from the disaster? But, probably, it will be “Same as it Ever Was”… BAU. LOL

        Like

      7. James Lovelock has a big mind. The prospect of billions-scale mass-annihilation doesn’t faze him a bit. He lived through WWII. I had intended to transcribe some of this (I think this is the one), but I’ll just post it for now.

        “Windows is more dangerous than nuclear”.

        Like

  36. @All

    I’d really like to share something with you. We are all part of the great mistery called Life, called Earth, called Cosmos, no matter, who we are, rich or poor, Wall Street vulture or beggar, denier or doomsday prophet, in the end we will all share the same fate anyway, living is dying and dying is living… as Bob Marley once sang “There’s a natural mystic blowing through the air”…

    Say I Am You:

    Like

    1. @Curious

      Off-topic… please post elsewhere. Do you really think people coming to get info on GM’s methane claims wants to hear about Rumi, as wonderful as he is, or watch Bob Marley sing live. Utter distraction…

      Thanks for posting on topic going forward!

      Balan

      Like

      1. Yeah sorry for the poetry… back to business…

        Any take on that?^^ :

        “Steve Goddard” proudly proclaims this morning that “Arctic Sea Ice Continues To Track 2005/2006“:

        Experts say that the Arctic is in a “death spiral” – but for the past two years it has been tracking 2005/2006 – the years with the two highest summer extents of the past decade...</i>"
        

        http://greatwhitecon.info/2015/05/arctic-sea-ice-fails-to-track-2005-06/

        Like

  37. Dear Scott,

    I’d like you to express your position on posting on-topic or off-topic with regard to the chosen subject of a thread on Fractal Planet.

    Personally, I find it annoying to read off-topic posts on Once More, and would like you to be more strict with reminding people to post on-topic, as you’ve been incredibly lax in saying anything at all over the past months, if ever. There was an original reason for creating various threads on different topics to ensure focus on an issue, and I observer this to be breaking down. Maybe you are so busy doing other things that it hasn’t been a priority for you, but I’d like you to at least post one comment on this for the benefit of John, Curious, Bill and anyone else who would like to post off-topic. A lot of blogs and discussion boards have at the top permanently pinned posts reminding contributors to post on topic. Maybe we might want to do the same.

    Thank you as always,

    Balan

    Like

    1. So, I’m sympathetic (especially as I know some people get email notifications of posts) but have also mainly been letting you folks decide how you want to use the comments here. I think it would be good if the McPherson threads were only used for McPhersony sort of stuff (if there is any more…), and most other stuff went in the general climate thread. I think everyone’s good on that.

      My other preference would be that shared links always be accompanied by some question or comment that might instigate or facilitate a discussion. Straight-up sharing for sharing’s sake is better suited for a social media platform.

      I also don’t think we should pick on John here. He has always been kind, and these comment threads are admittedly a bit awkward. I looked into setting up a forum for you folks, but that’s not something you can do with a freely-hosted blog.

      Like

      1. Hi, Scott.

        I’m glad to get your feedback on this, and appreciate your patience with tolerating those that see you as acting like a “KOCH-funded blogger” without any evidence whatsoever. I really do believe you demonstrate the epitome of tolerance and freedom of speech here, unlike McPherson who cuts out anyone he doesn’t like. I doubt I would have had that much patience if I were in your shoes. Also, thanks for voicing your preference for being on-topic on this thread, and your desire to have questions with any sharing that could invite discussion.

        Yeah, I think I over-reacted to John. Sorry, again, John! Thanks for your contributions here, and I look forward to more of them.

        Like

  38. Balan,

    Thanks for your replies, but you’ve merely quoted some emails from GM as examples of ideological thinking, but you don’t explain what makes them ideological. You posted the picture without the caption.

    Here’s an example of what I consider an ideological argument:

    Chomsky is socialist
    Socialism is wrong about everything
    Therefore everything Chomsky is wrong

    See? It’s easy.

    Please provide your definition of ideological and explain

    1) why it’s a bad thing and
    2) how it applies to my post

    OR preferably,

    Show a logical fallacy in my post and then explain why that fallacy is an example of “ideological”.
    I prefer the latter option because it is a bottom-up proof. Top-down is too much like “ideological”.

    Like

    1. Another opportune example of an ideological fallacy that you can relate to:

      Fantasy writers create fantasies.
      RS is a fantasy writer.
      Therefore anything that RS writes is fantasy.

      Like

      1. Bill:

        Your behavior of accusing Scott of “acting like” a Koch-funded blogger without citing any evidence whatsoever is ideological, and not a logical fallacy. If you hate ideological, the it follows you hate yourself in this instance.

        Balan

        Like

      2. balan wrote:
        Your behavior of accusing Scott of “acting like” a Koch-funded blogger without citing any evidence whatsoever…

        Apparently you didn’t see this posted a day ago, as requested.

        Like

  39. Balan wrote:
    List his actions that indicate that and let’s debate them right here and now, because I’m so done with your BS and have had it up to here with it.

    Please define “bullshit” and come with examples. I’m thinking it will be helpful in the upcoming discussion. Thanks and regards.

    Like

    1. Bill, I think you’re hopeless. Do you want me to define “hopeless” for you? You smack of Bud Nye-esque logic. You haven’t heard anything I’ve said, nor do I believe you ever will. Good luck!

      Like

    2. Balan wrote:
      List his actions that indicate that and let’s debate them right here and now, because I’m so done with your BS and have had it up to here with it

      And then,

      Bill, I think you’re hopeless. Do you want me to define “hopeless” for you? You smack of Bud Nye-esque logic. You haven’t heard anything I’ve said, nor do I believe you ever will. Good luck!

      Wow, I call that a swing and a miss. You get two more chances. HInt: You might want to work on your follow-through.

      You can skip the “ideological” definition because after a couple tries, I think I got it down. Not a daunting task. Einstein said if you can’t paraphrase it in a paragraph then you don’t understand it. Not a lot to ask, IMO.

      Voltaire said “If you would converse with me, then first define your terms”. I’ve found that to be good, time-saving advice. Here’s some further commentary on that concept:

      Define Your Terms

      Written by Darrell Anderson.

      “If you wish to converse with me,” said Voltaire, “define your terms.” How many a debate would have been deflated into a paragraph if the disputants had dared to define their terms! This is the alpha and omega of logic, the heart and soul of it, that every important term in serious discourse shall be subjected to the strictest scrutiny and definition. It is difficult, and ruthlessly tests the mind; but once done it is half of any task. Will Durant, The Story of Philosophy (Chapter 2, Aristotle and Greek Science, Part 3, The Foundation of Logic).

      You accused me of being ideological in my response to a post by Scott. I found that curious since I hate ideological. GW Bush league. So, I was surprised to be accused of that, and wondered how in the world you construed my post that way.

      Then you came with your major throw-down, all upset about a comment I made several months ago, suggesting that Scott seems like a denier, while professing the opposite. In the old days, deniers wore the badge with pride, but now that it’s been proven false, some feel the need to cloak their stance. Do you really think the denying crowd simply wised up when global warming was proved beyond the shadow of a doubt?) I called him a denier that one time, succumbing to the need to declare the obvious, and haven’t used it as a premise from which to derive proof in any of our debates (which would constitute “ideological behavior”). At least, I don’t believe I have. You seem to shrink from that “ruthless test”.

      “Bullshit”, I would define as being consistently wrong in your assertions, and further, impervious to rational argument. OK, that would describe you over the span of our recent exchanges. You making claims and then backing off with lame excuses, when merely asked for clarification–or not responding at all.

      So, there, I’ve defined the terms for you. If they’re not to your liking, then define them yourself, but at least let me know what it is we’re talking about.

      Bud Nye… he was correct about an important topic. I learned from that discussion, even though I ignored most of it. My feeling was that he was trying to express a concept that had not matured in his mind. You can feel something is true long before you are able to explain it or defend it. If I had been Scott, I would have just let him ramble. Maybe others found the ideas interesting. I certainly did. Scott’s resistance only made it worse.

      The relation between complexity, limits of our knowledge and non-linearity are not obvious, but they are highly relevant and even intriguing. Watch as more and more these concepts come to the fore as Earth systems lose the stability they’ve enjoyed over the last millenia. Although I do HOPE that doesn’t go too far before we wise up and do somehting.

      Regards.

      Like

      1. Bill:

        You asked me for examples of ideological and I gave them to you…two very pertinent and to the point ones. Now you’ve said that SJ acts like a KOCH-funded blogger, but don’t cite any examples to back your observations. Well? That is ideological, IMHO. The attitude behind most of your posts and history here reeks of this… an ideological smear. Reminds me subtlety of GM calling SJ a “liar” without citing any evidence. Congratulations on having joined the club. Or am I wrong? What’s your evidence for saying SJ acts like a KOCH-funded blogger?

        I’m waiting…

        Balan

        Like

      2. Balan wrote:
        * You asked me for examples of ideological and I gave them to you…two very pertinent and to the point ones.*

        I missed your second post, and I agree, there was a good example of “ideological” in that one. I apologize for my rant, since you did deliver on a definition.

        Balan wrote:
        Now you’ve said that SJ acts like a KOCH-funded blogger, but don’t cite any examples to back your observations. Well? That is ideological, IMHO.

        Tell me how that is ideological. It’s a subjective observation. Ideological would be using it as a premise in an argument. Show me where I’ve done that. Also, you haven’t explained how my response to sj—that started this—is ideological.

        As an example, take a look through Scott’s and my discussion of Hansen’s “Assessing…” paper. He asserts that he has read the paper and I haven’t and then goes on to claim that things aren’t in the paper that I show unequivocally are there, and begins to claim that I misunderstand the paper but doesn’t follow through with proof. And why is he so emphatic in his denial of Hansen’s 2C tipping point? Could it be that it’s a doom scenario promoted by none other than arguably the clearest thinker in the business? Is his objection based on science or ideology? If it’s based on science, then let him admit his error or prove his correctness. If it’s based on ideology, don’t expect any follow through. Expect excuses and personal attacks.

        Like

    3. Bill:

      Evasion is one hallmark of an ideologue. Reminds me of GM… Don’t address Scott’s salient and cutting points on methane…

      Balan

      Like

      1. Balan wrote:
        Evasion is one hallmark of an ideologue. Reminds me of GM… Don’t address Scott’s salient and cutting points on methane…

        I’m not understanding this “sentence”. If I am evading something, please be specific.
        What “salient and cutting” post of sj’s are you talking about?

        Certainly, ideologue, as a subset of charlatan is probably going to be evasive. LOL

        Like

  40. …” well strike another match, girl, go start anew…”

    Some time ago I postet a graph made by “Sam Carana” on another science blog, the answer was the same as usually, “ Caranas graphs don’t fit scientific standards”. It was a graph showing a clear correlation of CO2, temperature and methane…

    Now I found the following video with Jason Box at Economist Arctic Summit 2015 and he shows a correlation of CO2, nitrous oxide and methane at 03:11:

    Watch out for the blue line (methane) and the red line (CO2), they correlate perfectly with eachother, don’t they?

    Like

    1. I looked back and couldn’t find the Carana graph you’re referring to.

      But as to the graph Jason Box used… why wouldn’t they correlate? Especially on that zoomed-out timescale? We emit all three.

      What did you think the take-away from Carana’s graph was, that you’re hinting at now?

      Like

      1. Well, I thought just what both, Caranas and Box’s graphs clearly show: A correlation of CO2, methane and temperature (and nitrous oxide). I was just wondering because a geologist at that other science blog insisted that there is no correlation between CO2 and methane. I tried to find the Carana- graph, but couldn’t, sorry. Never mind, the projections of Box seem to be dire enough though.

        Box loud and clearly uses the terms ” abrupt” and “extrem” (related to the shown graph). And there is the socalled “hockey-stick” on his graph, no linear trend in any way, it shows an exponential curve shooting right up into the sky like a rocket (he used the term “rocket”). This is not a projection what he is showing, but actual data, as you notice.

        He indicates that the IPCC future projections are largely underestimated and neither the recently discovered exponential SLR, positive feedbacks nor methane are included in those IPCC projections. Conclusions?

        Like

      2. But what do you infer the correlation to signify? What do you think that means, that you want to point it out?

        If you zoom, a graph of some changing quantity will always look more extreme than if you zoom in. So are CO2 concentrations accelerating? Absolutely, that’s what happens when you emit more than you did the year before. But the magnitude matters. Once again, I’ll use Carana vs. climate science to make that distinction.

        Box is a glaciologist that studies Greenland. Outside his expertise, I’ve seen him be a bit aggressive in what he says (for lack of a better opposite of conservative). I haven’t watched the talk, so I can’t comment directly to what you’re referring to.

        His expertise is relevant to sea level rise, and that is a well-known place where the IPCC reports have been conservative— not because of some bias or something, but because the 2007 report explicitly left out some projections of ice sheet behavior that weren’t very well studied at that time. It said so clearly. That’s why the latest report had much higher sea level projections, though those are still considered to be on the conservative side by the scientific community, though not by much.

        Plenty of positive feedbacks factor into the IPCC projections, which are based on the state-of-the-art in climate modeling. Not all processes are included (and at least as importantly, other processes are imperfect). Permafrost carbon feedback, for example, is something few models can simulate currently. The early results of those are looking like this: http://arstechnica.com/science/2012/09/how-much-carbon-is-released-into-the-atmosphere-by-thawing-permafrost/

        Like

      3. @SJ

        But what do you infer the correlation to signify? What do you think that means, that you want to point it out?

        As I mentioned above, I wasn’t shure about that instant CO2/Methane correlation until I saw that video of Jason Box. I am no climate scientist, no scientist at all. Furthermore Box used the term abrupt and is referring to some spikes in the methane measurements also. Paul Beckwith also talks about “abrupt climate change” happening now in his newest talks. Don’t get me wrong, I am not saying that they are right, because I am no scientist, but I am trying to find out if they are right.

        Yes, Box is into Greenland (Dark Snow Project), researching the albedo- effects of aerosol particles on Greenland, I know.

        I’ve seen him be a bit aggressive in what he says (for lack of a better opposite of conservative). I haven’t watched the talk, so I can’t comment directly to what you’re referring to.

        Yes, that’s my point here. He was as conservative as Beckwith were, until they found some not so good news and both lack of a better opposite of conservative projections. They are field scienstists, observing what’s happening right now, not what models project of what might happen in the future. The models always imply a latency of years and years and all papers must be peer reviewed and peer reviewed and the scientific process is sloooow, but obviously changes can be very abrupt. That’s the problem with the scientific process, leave alone the political process afterwards. We are always running behind. That’s dangerous. The IPCC projections are permanently running behind, the scientific process is too slow and it will always be, that’s the nature of science.

        I don’t think that there are any real biases in the IPPC projections, it’s just the scientific process of 600(?) scientists and years and decades of research and climate conferences. But I see some very obvious biases on the political side. Politics always tend to look at the bright side of life, because that’s their job, they want to get elected, so they sell good news, lukewarmer news. Watch TV:

        Everything is business as usual, there is no real change, while California, Washington State and who else are running out of water. Dang. Can you see the permanent delay in action and the permanent acceleration of the climate process? The problem is politics, not science. When you don’t have no water anymore, then there is no need for any model, any scientific research anymore, is there?

        So that’s the problem with those panic- guys, those doomsday guys- the longer it takes to get real serious about actions, the more likelihood (exponentially?) that those guys might be right.

        Meanwhile the tone get’s really rude at McPherson’s blog, phew…

        Like

      4. Don’t get me wrong, I am not saying that they are right, because I am no scientist, but I am trying to find out if they are right.

        But I’m still not certain what you think they are saying, and might be right about.

        “Abrupt” is a qualitative word, especially for people who work with geologic records. So you have to give the details their due.

        Yes, that’s my point here. He was as conservative as Beckwith were, until they found some not so good news and both lack of a better opposite of conservative projections. They are field scienstists, observing what’s happening right now, not what models project of what might happen in the future. The models always imply a latency of years and years and all papers must be peer reviewed and peer reviewed and the scientific process is sloooow, but obviously changes can be very abrupt.

        So 1) you’re making a couple unwarranted assumptions and 2) some of this is just wrong. Where do you get this idea that Beckwith and Box were once “conservative”? Beckwith is a PhD student, by the way, and I’m not aware of his research project involving any field work. (But I’ve never actually seen him talk about what he’s doing.) Beckwith had a background in physics/engineering, and decided to go back to school because he was concerned about climate change.

        If you don’t think Jason Box works with or relies on models, you’re just not familiar enough with his work. And anyone who gives you an estimate for sea level by the end of the century is using a model of some kind.

        Models are not all slow and sluggish, while everyone sits around looking at the situation and knowing that it must be faster. This just isn’t true.

        It always takes considerably longer to do a research project than it takes to get it through peer review and published.

        Boil all this stuff down: what we’re interested in asking is “How much will the world warm if we emit x amount of greenhouse gases.” There are many ways to research this question, and modeling is a good one. Another is using records of past climate change. It’s from all these avenues that scientists draw the conclusion that the answer is about 3C for a doubling of CO2.

        Politicians, of course, are shitheads, and you’ll get no argument from me there.

        Like

      5. I thought some excerpts from the Jason Box presentation might be helpful.

        March 22, 2015

        8:10

        Just 10 years ago the best estimate was one third of this and so just in the past 10 years science reveals a more sensitive response than was encoded in models. Key message that we really need to emphasize the observations and be cautious about using climate model projections as policy tools.

        10:15 The permafrost degradation and the vast stores of carbon in the permafrost also destabilize from wave action on the shoreline and sea level rise pose a catastrophic risk that if warming triggers enough carbon release from the terrestrial environment, our policy efforts to manage climate change may become mute. We’re on a trajectory of losing control if enough warming-triggered carbon makes it into the atmosphere. That gives us a limited time to act. Surprises are around each corner. I think in my experience the scientific community keeps getting surprised. An example here recently… an explosive crater ejections in Siberian tundra. Siberia has been warming rapidly, I spoke with a Russian scientist who suggest this is a multi-decade process — a heat wave has slowly been propagating down to the depth where these explosive events have been occurring. That’s a long term process but the warming in Siberia is such that permafrost is degrading and we see some surprising dramatic events like this that we don’t fully understand and it’s good that field scientists are tackling this as we speak.

        12:50 In the context of ocean heating, we’re now starting to observe a process we don’t know how unnatural it is… how much of the ocean warming is triggering an increase in arctic and global sea floor methane release. We know that it’s natural for the seabed to outgas. What we still don’t have a handle on is eruptions of methane from the Arctic ocean bed. Like the land, there are wisps of measurements that show very high methane concentrations in the atmosphere at observing stations like Tiksi, but that methane quickly dissolves in the atmosphere, so it’s a relatively short-lived thing but hydrographic measurements show methane eruptions that… the risk factor that that poses if ocean heating is really destabilizing the Arctic seafloor in this way, our time is… it’s very clear that we need to stop adding carbon to the atmosphere—stop enhancing the greenhouse effect.

        The final point I’d like to make are… about model projections and how, despite the effort from many or our smartest atmospheric physicists, the models still lack several fundamental processes and I’d like to highlight these. For one, persistent atmospheric circulation anomalies. Today’s global climate models do not reproduce what we’re observing right now: the California Western-Eastern US… that record warm and dry in California, the record cold in the Eastern US, the climate models don’t resolve very steep jet streams–and lingering, lazy jet streams. And this is a signature of climate change. This produces drought; the Russian fires of 2010; this impacts grain production, and this is perhaps the most immediate effect of abrupt climate change is persisten strange weather patterns. The climate models do not, practically all of them do not include the effect of increasing darkening affecting the cryosphere. That feedback process is not in the models and therefore I would argue that those climate temperature projections are probably underestimates. The global climate models used for projections do not include methane release from the ocean or the land. There’s a couple of them that’s just emerging, but that physics simply isn’t encoded in the models yet. When we make an inventory of amplifiers and dampers in the climate system, unfortunately there’s not an equal number of dampers that would come to our rescue because we presented some strong amplifiers. The inventory is something like 4 or 5 to one on the amplifier and that’s how the climate system comes more rapidly out of the glacial periods and it’s a slow process going into the glacial periods. So my final slide makes this point that climate change and ocean acidification are symptoms, they’re symptoms of an economic system that externalizes environmental impacts. And it’s encouraging to hear signals from industry that we need to internalize — we need to price carbon and internalize that so we can bring our impacts from one and a half planets down to below one.

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      6. The graph Jason Box uses is the same one used by the IPCC, according to Wikipedia.

        There is also the long-term correlation of methane and temperature going back 800,000 years in the ice core record, and covering a global temp range up to about +2C.

        So, natue has done the extrapolation for us.

        Like

      7. James Hansen whole-heartedly agrees with Jason Box on the cauton needed when using models for climate projections. He has spoken on this in many places. Here is another example:

        Paleoclimate, changes of climate over Earth’s history, provide valuable insights about the effects
        of human perturbations to climate, even though there is no close paleoclimate analog of the
        strong, rapid forcing that humans are applying to the climate system. International discussions of
        human-made climate change (e.g., IPCC) rely heavily on global climate models, with less
        emphasis on inferences from the paleo record. A proper thing to say is that paleoclimate data
        and global modeling need to go hand in hand to develop best understanding — almost everyone
        will agree with that. However, it seems to me that paleo is still getting short-shrifted and
        underutilized. In contrast, there is a tendency in the literature to treat an ensemble of model runs
        as if its distribution function is a distribution function for the truth, i.e., for the real world. Wow.
        What a terrible misunderstanding. Today’s models have many assumptions and likely many
        flaws in common, so varying the parameters in them does not give a probability distribution for
        the real world, yet that is often implicitly assumed to be the case. But enough introduction.

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      8. Bill Shockley wrote:
        So, natue has done the extrapolation for us.

        Oh, Duh! I take that back. Methane has exceeded the levels of the last 800,000 years by more than 2X, even more, percentage-wise than CO2, so the likely correlation in industrial times with CO2 is a common anthropogenic source.

        Like

      9. @SJ

        But I’m still not certain what you think they are saying, and might be right about.

        Uhm, they are saying that abrupt, exponential climate change is now. Soon it will not be about models and research and politics and more research anymore, but naked survival. As I said: No water, no research, no models, no nothing anymore. No water, no food, no life, it’s that simple.

        “Abrupt” is a qualitative word, especially for people who work with geologic records. So you have to give the details their due.

        Yes, that’s why many geologists are deniers, they think in terms of centuries and millenia, Beckwith mentioned that. Btw, here is vid from Beckwith about abrupt climate change and extinction (he also mentions Beckwith in that vid):

        Here the link to the Beckwith channel, interesting stuff:

        https://www.youtube.com/user/PaulHBeckwith/videos

        If you don’t think Jason Box works with or relies on models, you’re just not familiar enough with his work.

        I did not say that those guys don’t use any model, no scientist works without any models.

        Models are not all slow and sluggish, while everyone sits around looking at the situation and knowing that it must be faster. This just isn’t true.
        It always takes considerably longer to do a research project than it takes to get it through peer review and published.

        Why then are the IPCC models always underestimating the real, actual situation?! They always have to correct the projections upwards, don’t they?! That just gives the politics enough delay for arguments to say “well let’s do some more research before we act” and fooling around with imaginary “carbon budgets”, hahahaha, man, when the days comes where there is no water, you will realize what I was talking about.

        Boil all this stuff down: what we’re interested in asking is “How much will the world warm if we emit x amount of greenhouse gases.” There are many ways to research this question, and modeling is a good one. Another is using records of past climate change. It’s from all these avenues that scientists draw the conclusion that the answer is about 3C for a doubling of CO2.

        Well, that’s fine… amd what about doubling SH4 also? :-)

        Like

      10. Uhm, they are saying that abrupt, exponential climate change is now. Soon it will not be about models and research and politics and more research anymore, but naked survival.

        You could describe the model projections (~4C by 2100 if business-as-usual) as abrupt and non-linear. If you’re talking about wild claims of a sudden jump above that projection, warming multiple degrees in a decade, that’s something else, entirely.

        Yes, that’s why many geologists are deniers, they think in terms of centuries and millenia, Beckwith mentioned that.

        This is definitely false, and I say that as a geologist. It’s true that geologists who work for oil companies are a skeptical lot, but so are meteorologists.

        Why then are the IPCC models always underestimating the real, actual situation?! They always have to correct the projections upwards, don’t they?!

        No, they don’t. Sea level projections, yes, as I mentioned before. But the temperature projections have really changed very little since the first reports— just as our best estimate of climate sensitivity hasn’t really changed since the 1979 Charney Report. See: http://arstechnica.com/science/2012/12/ipccs-climate-projections-on-target-so-far/ and the fourth question here: http://arstechnica.com/science/2013/12/your-questions-about-the-new-ipcc-climate-change-report-answered/
        Most people complaining about IPCC projections are the “skeptics” talking about how the last couple decades of surface temperatures are running below the projection. (e.g. http://arstechnica.com/civis/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1283373&p=29075297#p29075297)

        Like

      11. @SJ

        Take that:

        24.5.2015 – Why It’s So Hard to Convince Pseudo-Skeptics

        … In their latest speeches on global warming, Obama and the Pope weren’t trying to convince pseudo-skeptics that CAGW is real. Instead, they were sending signals to their supporters on what “all right thinking people” should be saying. This is classic in-group/out-group communication. Obama and the Pope were setting up the talking points for their in-group members to use to determine who can be considered part of the tribe and who should be rejected for being outside of it. This is a process called Othering. Othering turns political foes into non-beings. Others have no value. Others can be discounted and ignored. Others can be mocked…

        The scientific method rejects outright in-group/out groups, Othering, bellwethers and rational ignorance. A scientist is supposed to follow the results on an experiment even if the results don’t support his hypothesis. The scientist is clearly not supposed to rig the data to ensure he gets invited to a party with the right people or continued funding. But science has a poor track record on controversial topics. It often takes decades to accept new theories that are clear winners (e.g., continental drift).

        Scientists are still social animals. Social animals follow hierarchy and incentives. If you really want to win the debate on global warming, change the opinions of the bellwethers. Change the economic incentives for the global warming scientific paper mill. Otherwise you’re stuck debating only the people who are unable to change their minds because it would cost them personally to do so. Rare is the person intellectually honest enough to bite the hand that feeds or is willing to violate social norms to speak the truth.

        http://greatwhitecon.info/2015/05/why-its-so-hard-to-convince-pseudo-skeptics/

        Like

      12. I don’t understand the point you want to make with this.

        The point is that science is part of bigger picture, it is part of the system. Combined with technology, science gives the illusion that man can control nature. The story is like this:

        Now that we’ve eploited and raped the planet, there seem to come up some rather ugly effects. So, let’s do some further research, invent some further technology that will enable us to continue with exploitation and rape.

        See? Science and technology are not able to teach us how to feel our connection with nature and our total dependency on nature. It does not enable us to feel the mundaine pain of the victims, it just gives the faustian promise that the corporate powers, the money power, the socalled 1st world might be able to avoid the pain that was done to the rest of the world by inventing evermore control, called “progress” (progress in exploitation), but it can’t heal our relationship with nature. Science and technology are tools to control nature and men, tools to give false hope of everlasting progress:

        http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/our_mania_for_hope_is_a_curse_20150524

        Science can give you the exact formular for water: H2O- but does that quench our thirst? The (scientific and technological) spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak, therefore science and technological control will not prevail.

        Like

      13. Yes, sea ice is the other good example, although the more recent batch of models had a little more success.


        You could try actually reading the report to see what it says about that. Like section 12.4.6

        A frequent criticism of the CMIP3 models is that, as a group, they strongly underestimate the rapid decline in summer Arctic sea ice extent observed during the past few decades (e.g., Stroeve et al., 2007;
        Winton, 2011), which suggests that the CMIP3 projections of summer Arctic sea ice areal coverage might be too conservative. As shown in Section 9.4.3 and Figure 12.28b, the magnitude of the CMIP5 multi-model mean trend in September Arctic sea ice extent over the satellite era is more consistent with, but still underestimates, the observed one (see also Massonnet et al., 2012; Stroeve et al., 2012; Wang and Overland, 2012; Overland and Wang, 2013). Owing to the shortness of the observational record, it is difficult to ascertain the relative influence of natural variability on this trend. This hinders the comparison between modelled and observed trends, and hence the estimate of the sensitivity of the September Arctic sea ice extent to global surface temperature change (i.e., the decrease in sea ice extent per degree global warming) (Kay et al., 2011; Winton, 2011; Mahlstein and Knutti, 2012).
        This sensitivity may be crucial for determining future sea ice losses.

        In light of all these results, it is very likely that the Arctic sea ice cover will continue to shrink and thin all year round during the 21st century as the annual mean global surface temperature rises. It is also likely that the Arctic Ocean will become nearly ice-free in September before the middle of the century for high GHG emissions such as those corresponding to RCP8.5 (medium confidence).

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      14. Owing to the shortness of the observational record, it is difficult to ascertain the relative influence of natural variability on this trend. This hinders the comparison between modelled and observed trends…

        That’s the point. Science is and will always be late when it comes to abrupt, rapid changes. I said that already. I don’t blame science for it, but I do massivly blame politics and corporate companies. The biggest mistake most ordinary people on the street make is this: ” Yeees, there could be some problems with climate, but WE won’t face it, it’s about the next century !” (I hear that every day, 5 minutes ago I heard it again) And then they just go on with BAU. It is simple egoism: As long as I am not affected, everything is fine, isn’t it?

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      15. You’re conflating the “limits” of science (you have to actually figure things out before you know whether they’re true, and some things are hard to figure out) with societal apathy about dealing with problems. This makes no sense to me.

        Climate scientists actually put a fair amount of effort into generating the best risk assessments of abrupt changes they can— and there’s plenty of that in this report, by the way. If the absolute statement “science is and will always be late when it comes to abrupt, rapid changes” is true, so is this one: people who always assume abrupt changes will always be wrong.

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      16. You’re conflating the “limits” of science (you have to actually figure things out before you know whether they’re true, and some things are hard to figure out) with societal apathy about dealing with problems.

        Well, thanks for the advice :-) I don’t conflate science with societal apathy, but politics does and nature just reacts, that’s all. We can have the ultimate science and technology- when the planet is beeing raped and exploited, we will be punished, it’s that simple, isn’t it? As I said more than once now, I don’t blame science, but I blame politics and societal apathy. And, btw:

        I am old and got nothing to loose and I don’t even have children (I didn’t want to have children on a suicide planet), but I reduce my consumption as far as I can, while the majority of the socalled 1st world just goes on with BAU (funny, isn’t it?), no matter how good or how bad science might be.

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      17. That’s fine, but your societal criticism does not constitute a criticism of climate science. I thought we were talking about science.

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      18. That’s fine, but your societal criticism does not constitute a criticism of climate science. I thought we were talking about science.

        Yes, let’s talk about science, I like science, I am addicted to science, especially to the Laws Of Nature :-) Ok then, back to business:

        What does science tell us about the implications of 91°F in may in Alaska for permafrost in Alaska? Any idea? Might those facts bring us a little nearer to McPherson eventually? And what is your assessment about an ice free arctic at the end of this summer? And if so, what further implications does that mean?

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      19. What does science tell us about the implications of 91°F in may in Alaska for permafrost in Alaska? Any idea?

        Not much- it’s weather. The jet stream will soon waggle back southward. But it will probably add up to an unusually warm spring, on the whole, which could affect the summer.
        http://mashable.com/2015/05/22/warmer-in-alaska-than-texas/
        http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/capital-weather-gang/wp/2015/05/26/alaska-recorded-its-hottest-temperature-so-early-in-the-season-over-memorial-day-weekend/

        Might those facts bring us a little nearer to McPherson eventually?

        I can give you an unequivocal “no” to that. Not even remotely.

        And what is your assessment about an ice free arctic at the end of this summer?

        If we hit “ice-free” this summer, I’ll eat my hat. It’s not going to happen.

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      20. If we hit “ice-free” this summer, I’ll eat my hat. It’s not going to happen.

        I hope you’re hat’s edible, Scott! With Arctic sea ice, we seem to be constantly surprised by its behaviour. I also don’t expect a technically sea ice free Arctic this summer, but it wouldn’t totally surprise me. It’s at a record low for the time of year, at the moment, though I wouldn’t leap on that as Carana does, and has, or as, no doubt, McPherson will. We won’t know until some time in September but I think we’ll be surprised, one way or the other.

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      21. Area and extent are definitely starting low, although volume is ranked a little higher. I wouldn’t be surprised if we hit a new record extent this year, and I wouldn’t be surprised if we fell well short. Too early to guess. But <1M sq km would take a miracle.

        I’m not stocking the pantry with hat sauce just yet…

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      22. @SJ

        My question was:

        What does science tell us about the implications of 91°F in may in Alaska for permafrost in Alaska? Any idea?

        Your answer to my question was:

        Not much…

        And you sent two links, but sorry, no information about permafrost in Alaska in the links you sent^^ Mh, are you shure that 91° in may does not much to the permafrost in Alaska? There have been news in march 2014 already:

        27.3.2014 – Climate change shifts the earth in Alaska

        Melting permafrost is destroying buildings in far north Alaska, worrying residents and scientists…

        “It’s warming up,” says Romanovsky (University of Alaska Fairbanks’ Geophysical Institute ), “even the deepest permafrost is several degrees warmer than it was 30 years ago“.

        http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/2014/03/climate-change-shifts-earth-alaska-2014327667287787.html

        Well, the alaskan permafrost seems to be some kind of a problem, but seemingly not for Shell:

        “ 20.5.2015 – “Many of our military installations are on the coast, including, of course, our Coast Guard stations. Around Norfolk, high tides and storms increasingly flood parts of our Navy base and an air base. In Alaska, thawing permafrost is damaging military facilities. Out West, deeper droughts and longer wildfires could threaten training areas our troops depend on.”
        Earlier this month, the Obama administration, citing “rigorous safety standards” and a long review process, granted conditional approval to energy giant Shell to begin oil drilling in the Arctic waters off the coast of Alaska…

        http://www.ky3.com/obama-highlights-climate-change-in-speech/21048768_33123826

        Isn’t that a perfect example of corporate interests hand in hand with politics ignoring science/climate-reality and it’s implications in a rather impertinent way? I think so 8-)

        Permafrost in Alaska is melting, no scientific doubt, right?

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      23. Of course it’s thawing over time. But we’re talking about a week or two of warm weather within a decades-long trend. You wouldn’t declare the loss of permafrost resolved if they had a cold snap, right? Does a warm spring move along the thawing of the active layer, opening the possibility for some extra thaw late in the warm season? Sure, but there’s a whole lot of weather between here and there that will have more to say about it.
        http://www.arctic.noaa.gov/essay_romanovsky.html

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      24. @SJ

        Dear Scott, the link to the Romanovsky article you sent is from 7/13/2004, so it’s 11 Years old ! Are you kidding?

        It really doesn’t look like natural, long term permafrost thaw in Alaska, but rapid thaw:

        22.5.2015 – ‘Epic’ Flooding Hinders Oil Operations on Alaska’s North Slope

        Unprecedented flooding continues to interfere with daily operations on Alaska’s North Slope oil patch after surging waters wiped away swaths of the Dalton Highway and isolated a section of Deadhorse, the jumping-off point for the sprawling industrial region.
        This is just epic,” said Mike Coffey, commander of the unified incident command, a response team consisting of the state, the North Slope Borough and oil companies. “People who have been here for decades say they’ve never seen anything like it.
        The state has estimated the costs of the damage and repairs since March at $5.1 million. The federal government may pay for much of that, since the icing and flooding on the highway has been declared a disaster, said Coffey, the director of state transportation maintenance and operations.
        The event was caused by heavy summer rains followed by extensive freezing this winter, trapping the water in place, then a rapid spring warmup that has brought record temperatures to the region.
        “It’s kind of a perfect storm for things to go south,” said Coffey…

        http://www.huffingtonpost.com/alaskadispatchcom/epic-flooding-hinders-oil_b_7421084.html

        They do already have huge problems with buildings and also with water supply due to permafrost thaw in Alaska… and they are late for preparing (like most countries) and the ecosystem is in danger because of thawing permafrost now:

        18.3.2015 – Thawing Permafrost Threatens Alaska’s Ecosystem, University of Alaska Fairbanks Researcher Says

        Climate change stands to trigger a regime change in Alaska, with far-reaching consequences as frozen ground thaws beneath us, a prominent University of Alaska Fairbanks scientist told the Tanana Chiefs Conference on Tuesday.
        “Permafrost is the most important part of the ecosystem for engineering in Alaska,” said hydrologist Larry Hinzman. “When you thaw the permafrost, everything falls apart.”
        Hinzman, the director of the International Arctic Research Center, said Alaska is well on its way to switching from a frozen to a thawed state — not a seasonal swing but something more permanent…

        http://www.adn.com/article/20150318/thawing-permafrost-threatens-alaskas-ecosystem-uaf-researcher-says

        The same goes for Siberia as you may have noticed…

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      25. Dear Scott, the link to the Romanovsky article you sent is from 7/13/2004, so it’s 11 Years old ! Are you kidding?

        It wasn’t an update on the current state, it was a basic description of permafrost in Alaska, defining active layer, etc.

        It really doesn’t look like natural, long term permafrost thaw in Alaska, but rapid thaw:

        What is “natural”? Did I say something about it being “natural”? What do you mean by “long-term”? Decades? Millennia? What do you mean by “rapid”? Losing that permafrost area this century? This decade? I’m talking about the trend over the last century accompanying rising temperatures.

        ‘Epic’ Flooding Hinders Oil Operations on Alaska’s North Slope

        Thawing permafrost doesn’t generate floods, so I don’t understand what you’re getting at with this. From your article:

        The event was caused by heavy summer rains followed by extensive freezing this winter, trapping the water in place, then a rapid spring warmup that has brought record temperatures to the region.

        From the rest of that article:

        The flooding has been expected since March and April, when portions of the Dalton became an icy luge course with meltwater on top of it, forcing the state to temporarily close the sole road to the North Slope.

        Your other link isn’t related to your argument.

        You’re kind of throwing a lot of things at me, and much of it isn’t tied to your previous points. It’s kind of hard to follow. I never said Alaskan permafrost wasn’t thawing, or that it wasn’t a problem. You asked me if this week’s heat-wave had some major, big picture implication, and I said it did not. Now you’re responding to me as if I said something else.

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      26. @Curious

        Frankly speaking, it seems to me that Curious is rather Spurious… I wonder if you have caught the ‘ideological’ bug that Shockley has… Do you, too, presume Scott to be a “Koch-funded blogger” without any evidence whatsoever?

        Balan

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      27. “Rapid” or not is a relative, a quite human term according to human perspective, so the people of Alaska will have to decide wether it’s “rapid” melt or not, because they are effected. They seem to be rather late for preparing, so permafrost melting is simply faster than they prepared, it’s more rapid than they could or were willing to prepare for it. Yeah, “rapid”, what does that mean… science together with the people of Alaska, Siberia and elsewhere will find it out I’m shure.

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  41. On May 23, 2015, temperatures in Alaska were as high as 91°F (32.78°C),..“…

    Is that true? Com on, i have to wear a pullover and a coat here in Germany, it’s cold outside… 91°F in Alaska in may?… “head crashing on desktop”…

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    1. Funny… :) I feel very worried when I see those high temps in Alaska… and how jet streams are destabilizing from past patterns more and more. On a positive note, I’m posting in General Climate Discussions a TED Talk I recently watched of Amory Lovins of The Rocky Mountain Institute on a 40-year energy plan. I’d appreciate any feedback that others might want to share on having watched it.

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      1. Yeah funny, next time I will go on summer vacation in Alaska or maybe Siberia, bathing in the lukewarm arctic ocean, no need to go to the mediterranian anymore 8-) It is the “Ridiculously Resilient Ridge” and it will stay there and get worse and worse, it will wring out the water of the US westcoast and grill it. The jet stream as we knew it isn’t anymore.

        I will watch the TED Talk… it must be this one, i guess:

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      2. Curious, I actually agreed with you how serious the situation is, and am not laughing at how funny temps are, but due to this being a text-based transmission, you couldn’t get the intonation. “head crashing on desktop” – funny because it’s true for me too. Get it?

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      3. @Balan

        Curious, I actually agreed with you how serious the situation is, and am not laughing at how funny temps are, but due to this being a text-based transmission, you couldn’t get the intonation. “head crashing on desktop” – funny because it’s true for me too. Get it?

        Yep, got it!

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      4. Sorry for overseeing that you posted the vid in General climate discussions!

        Btw: Any idea what those dire temperature anomalies in Alaska and elsewhere might do to the permafrost?

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